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The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread


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#1 Stark Future

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Posted 02 May 2006 - 04:56 PM

What if... Stop me if this has been said before...

What if Jon Snow is truly the child of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen and Ned DID lie for once in his honest life, you know.... before the whole incident at King's Landing? He lied that time to save lives but as we know that didn't work out so well. Though to even speculate more I would need to reread and do a time line thing if I had more info to go on.... I'm very unclear as to how Ned fell in love with someone whilst he was gone in so short a time and have a child..... children in asoiaf do take nine months to mature before being shoved into the world right? For some reason I'm thinking that maybe this child might not have been "his" in the first place though Jon does look so much like a Stark... ahh.... I could be on to something? Maybe? I think Ned was just protecting the infant child and never even told his bestfriend (Robert) in fear he'd have him killed... seeing how his sister was "supposed" to marry Robert and that Rhaegar was in love with her. Robert would have cheated on her a lot anyway. We all know Robert was a whore. Hey.... that would give Jon a chance at having the throne himself! Right? RIGHTFULLY! And I believe if Dany knew this she'd let it happen, she only wants the throne for herself because of duty and she is the last in line. I don't think she just wants it for any selfish reasons and seein's how she can't have any children... Who would be better than Jon?!?!?!? Fertile and a Targaryen. Mark my words, this could happen ;) Chew on that :)


Also, I had a thought on Daenerys unsullied.... If they have no desire to start families or do much of anything else for obvious reasons after she wins her kingdom back then they can go to the wall and be true brothers of the Nights Watch... they will never want for wives or lovers.

Edited by Werthead, 08 May 2006 - 12:24 PM.


#2 Bazzlebane

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Posted 02 May 2006 - 04:59 PM

Wow, I've never heard this idea before. ;)

Welcome to the boards.

#3 Miriel

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Posted 02 May 2006 - 05:01 PM

Also, I had a thought on Daenerys unsullied.... If they have no desire to start families or do much of anything else for obvious reasons after she wins her kingdom back then they can go to the wall and be true brothers of the Nights Watch... they will never want for wives or lovers.

Interesting thought that ... but they would all age and die out, and who would replace them?

Plus the NW serves a useful purpose in Westeros, in that it takes a bunch of felons who would have been executed in the Real World European Middle Ages, and gives them a purpose and keeps them isolated from the rest of the kingdom.

#4 Bazzlebane

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Posted 02 May 2006 - 05:04 PM

Interesting thought that ... but they would all age and die out, and who would replace them?


Well, the current members of the Night's Watch don't breed either. At least not officially, so that's no change. The Unsullied would be a great boost for the Crows, and then recruitment would continue as it has for hundreds (thousands?) of years for the succeeding generations.

#5 Grumpygoat

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Posted 02 May 2006 - 05:11 PM

Interesting thought that ... but they would all age and die out, and who would replace them?

Plus the NW serves a useful purpose in Westeros, in that it takes a bunch of felons who would have been executed in the Real World European Middle Ages, and gives them a purpose and keeps them isolated from the rest of the kingdom.


One thing I don't "get." Why people care at all who will replace the Unsullied as Night's Watchmen. Any influx of a few thousand men will eventually age and die. And by the time the Unsullied go to the Wall, the series will be over.

And it's not like the Night's Watch would suddenly stop refusing new members just because they have a heap-ton of Unsullied. Felons will still get sent to the Wall. That won't stop just because a bunch of Unsullied now fill the ranks. The Watch is a second chance for everybody, be they criminals, third sons, or one-armed blacksmiths.

#6 Bazzlebane

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Posted 02 May 2006 - 05:15 PM

Stark Future, if you want a big debate on the subject of Jon Snow's parents, check out this active thread:

http://asoiaf.wester...?showtopic=7828

Artanaro, the board's highest profile opponent of the theory, jousts with several different supporters of the theory. They go into quite a bit of detail. It gives you a good perspective on both sides of the argument. I myself am firmly in the "R+L=J" camp, as it's known.

#7 Vestrit

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Posted 02 May 2006 - 05:20 PM

Stop me if this has been said before...


Stop.

That said, here's some respect for working it out yourself. :)

It didn't even occur to me that Jon wasn't Ned's before I came onto these boards

#8 TBBX

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Posted 02 May 2006 - 05:32 PM

The unsullied is a pretty good idea but I don't know if there will be that many of them left after everything is done. And they need someone to constantly give them orders or so it seems so that would be a problem I would think. And there has to be stone masons and people to take care of the ravens and such so just the unsullied wouldn't do

#9 Miriel

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Posted 02 May 2006 - 05:45 PM

One thing I don't "get." Why people care at all who will replace the Unsullied as Night's Watchmen. Any influx of a few thousand men will eventually age and die. And by the time the Unsullied go to the Wall, the series will be over.

And it's not like the Night's Watch would suddenly stop refusing new members just because they have a heap-ton of Unsullied. Felons will still get sent to the Wall. That won't stop just because a bunch of Unsullied now fill the ranks. The Watch is a second chance for everybody, be they criminals, third sons, or one-armed blacksmiths.

You are right .. it was my misreading of the original poster's idea.

For some reason I thought she meant then all the other NWmen could go home if the Unsullied took there place.

My bad! :(

#10 Grumpygoat

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Posted 02 May 2006 - 06:30 PM

The unsullied is a pretty good idea but I don't know if there will be that many of them left after everything is done. And they need someone to constantly give them orders or so it seems so that would be a problem I would think. And there has to be stone masons and people to take care of the ravens and such so just the unsullied wouldn't do


How many men do you think go to the Wall knowing about ravens and masonry?

There's bound to be at least a few Unsullied, anyway, that know the basics about masonry, if only for the purpose of siege warfare and fortifying a location.

And the Unsullied mostly need a singular leader, such as the Lord Commander (whether it's John Snow or Jorah Mormont or whomever). Other than that, Dany's already seen fit to create officers from their ranks.

And even if only 2,000 out of the Unsullied's, what, 10 or so thousand? If only that many survive, that's still...twice what the Night's Watch had when the series began? And all in one swoop of recruitment? That's a hefty influx of members there. And a rather conservative estimation of how many may survive, I think.

#11 TBBX

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Posted 02 May 2006 - 07:18 PM

How many men do you think go to the Wall knowing about ravens and masonry?

There's bound to be at least a few Unsullied, anyway, that know the basics about masonry, if only for the purpose of siege warfare and fortifying a location.

And the Unsullied mostly need a singular leader, such as the Lord Commander (whether it's John Snow or Jorah Mormont or whomever). Other than that, Dany's already seen fit to create officers from their ranks.

And even if only 2,000 out of the Unsullied's, what, 10 or so thousand? If only that many survive, that's still...twice what the Night's Watch had when the series began? And all in one swoop of recruitment? That's a hefty influx of members there. And a rather conservative estimation of how many may survive, I think.


For some reason I doubt that the Unsullied have been taught anything at all besides learning how to obey orders and become emotionally detached and such. My point about the unsullied would be that I don't think they could really learn all these things. I mean the whole point of the unsullied is that it is an army that doesn't think. They just follow orders. I just think that the unsullied wouldn't be enough on their own because they would only fight and hunt and such so other non-unsullied people would have to supplement them with the masonry and such is all I meant. I'll try and be more clear next time

#12 Grumpygoat

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Posted 02 May 2006 - 07:50 PM

Perfectly clear. I just don't think your point is valid.

A good soldier needs a degree of adaptability. Battle plans are wont to change the moment a fight actually starts, and that needs to be accounted for.

The Unsullied are bred for obedience, but that training involves warfare. It likely involves foraging. Keeping an open line of communication. Adapting to various types of terrain. Ability to set up camp, dig a latrine, and how best to take a city.

And if you tell an Unsullied to start learning something, that obedience kicks in. As such, an Unsullied set to learning about, say, ravens, will go at it with utmost dedication.

An Unsullied who was sent into the Night's Watch would come with slightly better masonry skills than the average recruit, equally decent raven skills as the average recruit, vastly better fighting skills as the average recruit, similar levels of hunting prowess as the average recruit (or slightly better than the average recruit), and vastly more dedication to learning what he's told to learn than the average recruit.

#13 Stark Future

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Posted 02 May 2006 - 09:28 PM

Interesting thought that ... but they would all age and die out, and who would replace them?

Plus the NW serves a useful purpose in Westeros, in that it takes a bunch of felons who would have been executed in the Real World European Middle Ages, and gives them a purpose and keeps them isolated from the rest of the kingdom.


I was thinking of the Unsullied as a "fast band-aid" for the wall, I know they would all die out, just as everyone does out... the men of the Night's Watch are not supposed to breed anyway..... It would be a fast fix though agreed?


Well, the current members of the Night's Watch don't breed either. At least not officially, so that's no change. The Unsullied would be a great boost for the Crows, and then recruitment would continue as it has for hundreds (thousands?) of years for the succeeding generations.



Errr....I should have finished reading the replies since I just said the same thing you said :)

#14 Stark Future

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Posted 02 May 2006 - 10:06 PM

Wow, I've never heard this idea before. ;)

Welcome to the boards.



Which is the new idea? The Unsullied at the wall idea or the Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen being Jon Snow's true parents idea? I *try not* to read on this board as much as I can since I am still only on aSoS. Nothing can truly ruin a book for me but I sort of wish I had not known Robb as going to die.. That alone made me figure out the Frey plot before hand.

One of the main reasons I questioned Jon Snows parentage early on is because Ned was very guarded about it. Very guarded. First thought was that he was hiding it because it would endanger Jon's life. The only thing that throws me off is that Ned says things in his head like "You fathered a bastard".... BUT maybe he says those things to himself.... like taking the rap....ya know? You said it and now you have it stuck on you, kind of thing...

I'm just glad to have people to talk to about this stuff.... it drives me mad not kicking ideas around with other people. If I go to this http://asoiaf.wester...?showtopic=7828 will it destroy anymore plots or give much away? I'm wondering if I should have a look see.....

As I see it, things would work out for the Starks AND the Targaryens in the *end* if Jon Snow was the child of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen. I'm not saying this is where GRRM is going with it but I have been known to have a knack for picking things out.

#15 TBBX

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Posted 02 May 2006 - 10:21 PM

Perfectly clear. I just don't think your point is valid.

A good soldier needs a degree of adaptability. Battle plans are wont to change the moment a fight actually starts, and that needs to be accounted for.

The Unsullied are bred for obedience, but that training involves warfare. It likely involves foraging. Keeping an open line of communication. Adapting to various types of terrain. Ability to set up camp, dig a latrine, and how best to take a city.

And if you tell an Unsullied to start learning something, that obedience kicks in. As such, an Unsullied set to learning about, say, ravens, will go at it with utmost dedication.

An Unsullied who was sent into the Night's Watch would come with slightly better masonry skills than the average recruit, equally decent raven skills as the average recruit, vastly better fighting skills as the average recruit, similar levels of hunting prowess as the average recruit (or slightly better than the average recruit), and vastly more dedication to learning what he's told to learn than the average recruit.


I still don't know. I only got the impression that the only thing they knew how to do was fight considering how thy are trained since the age of 5 and up to master the shortsword and such. The only thing besides fighting that we have seen the Unsullied do was set up camp. Apparently the Unsullied are quick learners if you look at Grey Worm. The only things that were mentioned when questioned about their training was their obdience and their weapons training. It's almost like they are all army ants, which is why I don't think that just the Unsullied are enough. If they are to learn anything else they'll need people to learn it from.

Edited by TBBX, 02 May 2006 - 10:22 PM.


#16 Stark Future

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 12:08 AM

The Unsullied are fast to learn I'm sure. IF they are told to do something they just do it without question, I'm not saying that everyone else leave the wall, just that the Unsullied would be good candidates for the wall. There would be other people there skilled in their own trades and can TEACH the Unsullied as well... I mean it's not like the Unsullied can not learn like regular people. I don't even see the argument in this... or whatever you call it.

The Unsullied are trained warriors and that is what the wall needs more than anything at any point. The other things they could just be filled in on. How hard would it be to say... "if you see anyone that is not of us come over this wall, under this wall or through this wall kill it or bring it to us if you can". They aren't idiots because they had rigorous training and their.... manhoods lopped off.

#17 TBBX

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 12:31 AM

I said just because like Miriel is misread is all

#18 A Verb of Nouns

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 03:07 AM

I don't see why N+L=J is so far-fetched.

#19 Nasmodeus

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 06:32 AM

^^ ned and his sister!!! gross!!!!!! that is very far fetched if you ask me ;) he he

ppl and their crackpot theories I dont know :P

Edited by Nasmodeus, 03 May 2006 - 06:37 AM.


#20 jon tarkaryen

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 06:42 AM

Oh plese stop with the incest theories.We have Cersei and Jaime,thats more then enough.Besides,although there sure was love between Ned and Lyanna,I doubt they were screwing each other.