Why didn't Tywin marry Jaime to Elia of Dorne

[The Black Hawk]

Alright I get that he didn't want Cersei married to Oberyn because he wanted her to be Queen. But Jaime was going to be Lord of Casterly Rock and Joanna wished for at least one of her children to be married to one of the Martell's. Why did Tywin make marriage plans for Jaime to marry Lysa Tully when he had a willing bride for his son on his front doorstep. In my mind your taking a great deal and downgrading to bad deal. I mean Dorne is a strong military might but does not have the numbers of the Riverlands but Tywin would have to protect the Riverlands during Robert's Rebellion from whatever side he would take.

[daario's man]

Alright I get that he didn't want Cersei married to Oberyn because he wanted her to be Queen. But Jaime was going to be Lord of Casterly Rock and Joanna wished for at least one of her children to be married to one of the Martell's. Why did Tywin make marriage plans for Jaime to marry Lysa Tully when he had a willing bride for his son on his front doorstep. In my mind your taking a great deal and downgrading to bad deal. I mean Dorne is a strong military might but does not have the numbers of the Riverlands but Tywin would have to protect the Riverlands during Robert's Rebellion from whatever side he would take.

Well he didn't know that RR was going to happen, so why would he plan for it. Also wasn't Elia a lot older than Jaime?

[mrunderhill]

Alright I get that he didn't want Cersei married to Oberyn because he wanted her to be Queen. But Jaime was going to be Lord of Casterly Rock and Joanna wished for at least one of her children to be married to one of the Martell's. Why did Tywin make marriage plans for Jaime to marry Lysa Tully when he had a willing bride for his son on his front doorstep. In my mind your taking a great deal and downgrading to bad deal. I mean Dorne is a strong military might but does not have the numbers of the Riverlands but Tywin would have to protect the Riverlands during Robert's Rebellion from whatever side he would take.

Lysa looked healthy and capable of having children. Elia looked sickly and likely to die in childbirth. Marrying Lysa improves relationships with his neighbours and means his grandchildren would be cousins to the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands and the North. which was a powerful power block.

[daario's man]

Sorry, double post.

[Morienthar]

Well he didn't know that RR was going to happen, so why would he plan for it. Also wasn't Elia a lot older than Jaime?

When has being older mattered in westeros??

Lysa looked healthy and capable of having children. Elia looked sickly and likely to die in childbirth. Marrying Lysa improves relationships with his neighbours and means his grandchildren would be cousins to the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands and the North. which was a powerful power block.

This is basically it,Dorne is too far away in a time of need.

[diremitar]

Well he didn't know that RR was going to happen, so why would he plan for it. Also wasn't Elia a lot older than Jaime?

Not sure about that. I think Starks, Baratheons, Lannisters and Arryn schemed to dethrone Aerys and put Rhaegar on the throne or someone else but probably Rhaegar (that was before tourney at HH)

They needed alliance of Hoster Tully so the plan was that Jaime and Brandon marries Hoster's daughters

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Because he didn't want to. Honestly, offering Tyrion in Jaime's place is just a big "fuck you" to Dorne - and it was received as such.

When has being older mattered in westeros??

When it reduced the chance of healthy heirs and there was no pressure to make an alliance ASAP.

[Lady Pounce of Whiskerrun]

Also--as Tyrion points out, the Martells' visit to Casterly Rock had pretty much the worst timing ever, since Joanna had just died. Even if Tywin might have been more favorably disposed to the Princess of Dorne's proposal at another time, then he was probably just angry and sad and resentful of her intrusion on his grief.

[Steinnis]

As others have already said, bad timing. Plus, it did seem to be more of Joanna's notion than Tywin's. It might've been the first he'd heard of it, but offering Tyrion instead was definitely an insult. Typical Tywin gotta love how Aerys put him in his place, but also led to some very tragic events.

[TalalOfDorne]

The problem is he was rude in rejecting them. Yes his wife died, and thats tragic but you cant just spurn an entire kingdom for it.

[Chaircat Meow]

No real idea, but she was known to be sickly (so not a good match) and the lords paramount didn't intermarry much before the creation of the STAB alliance business (which was related to the king's madness). He didn't need an alliance with Dorne either.

I suspect lady Joanna was mainly interested in dissuading her husband from pushing on with his ambitions for Cersei to marry Rhaegar, given she suspected it would never work/be accepted, and the Dornish matches were a means to this end.

[mrunderhill]

No real idea, but she was known to be sickly (so not a good match) and the lords paramount didn't intermarry much before the creation of the STAB alliance business (which was related to the king's madness). He didn't need an alliance with Dorne either.

I suspect lady Joanna was mainly interested in dissuading her husband from pushing on with his ambitions for Cersei to marry Rhaegar, given she suspected it would never work/be accepted, and the Dornish matches were a means to this end.

I don't see it this way. Tywin seems to have had assurance from the King that Rhaegar would be betrothed to Cersei. He is not the sort of man to go around bragging about it to everyone unless he knew. Nor is he foolish enough to risk public rejection like that. The formal acceptance of betrothals is nothing more than pantomime. The real negotiations have been finished long before. Why else do you think Rhaegar and the king came to the Westerlands for a big tournament?

Joanna, probably wanted her children to marry her best friends children like people do. The same way Robert wanted his son to marry Ned's daughter. Not much more to it and Catelyn or Lysa would have been the best match, considering the way things were going.

[Kuther2000]

I don't see it this way. Tywin seems to have had assurance from the King that Rhaegar would be betrothed to Cersei. He is not the sort of man to go around bragging about it to everyone unless he knew. Nor is he foolish enough to risk public rejection like that. The formal acceptance of betrothals is nothing more than pantomime. The real negotiations have been finished long before. Why else do you think Rhaegar and the king came to the Westerlands for a big tournament?Joanna, probably wanted her children to marry her best friends children like people do. The same way Robert wanted his son to marry Ned's daughter. Not much more to it and Catelyn or Lysa would have been the best match, considering the way things were going.

I don't think of it that way. Tywin really didn't brag to people about Rhaegar marrying Cersei. He told members of his family who are close to him his plans. Tywin also told the Princess of Dorne as a reason for why Cersei wasn't to marry Oberyn.

I don't think Tywin had assurances of Rhaegar being betrothed to Cersei. It is a case of why wouldn't he betroth my daughter to his son. Cersei is a beautiful 10 year old (whatever that means). She is the only daughter to the richest house in Westeros. They were once royalty themselves. She is also the only daughter of Tywin, Lord of Casterly Rock, Shield of Lannisport, and Warden of the West and Hand of the King. I mean who wouldn't want to marry her. She looks amazing on paper. Truthfully, if it had been any other King the marriage probably would have happened, but it was Aerys who was jealous of Tywin in many ways. The tourney seemed like the perfect place to broach the subject of marriage. Everyone is in a happy mood and King Aerys and his family are being honored in his House.

Back to the subject:

At first I didn't understand myself why would Tywin reject Elia, but then I looked at it his way. Elia is 8 or 9 years older than Jaime. This isn't good when the girl is that much older than the guy. She was also sickly. Dorne is not that close to the westerlands.

Tywin probably already had Lysa or Catelyn in mind for Jaime too. Catelyn and Lysa are 1 year older and the same age as Jaime. They were also healthier. They are the daughters of Hoster Tully, Lord of Riverrun and Lord Paramount of the Trident. Riverlands are closer to the Westerlands. They really would be better matches on paper.

Elia wasn't put forth as a candidate to Rhaegar until after Cersei was rejected.(I think) Tywin also didn't have the book's foresight to know that Elia not Cersei would marry Rhaegar. Although Elia would have difficult births, she would make it through them and provide with both a daughter and a son. Elia may have lived a long life if not for the intervention of Tywin Lannister himself. If he did have the knowledge, he may have accepted it.

[Rheagar Prime]

i know his wife died and that really played into it, it truly was bad timing he was being a dick no less. Still i guess he say the baratheon, tully, stark alliance as more promising and he was in his right to think that. Shit it was the 1st so many lord paramounts were being inter married into each others houses so i can't blame him to want in. Still offering tyrion really was a bit much i wonder what doran's mom said to convince aerys to marry elia to rhaegar instead.

[mrunderhill]

I don't think of it that way. Tywin really didn't brag to people about Rhaegar marrying Cersei. He told members of his family who are close to him his plans. Tywin also told the Princess of Dorne as a reason for why Cersei wasn't to marry Oberyn.

I don't think Tywin had assurances of Rhaegar being betrothed to Cersei. It is a case of why wouldn't he betroth my daughter to his son. Cersei is a beautiful 10 year old (whatever that means). She is the only daughter to the richest house in Westeros. They were once royalty themselves. She is also the only daughter of Tywin, Lord of Casterly Rock, Shield of Lannisport, and Warden of the West and Hand of the King. I mean who wouldn't want to marry her. She looks amazing on paper. Truthfully, if it had been any other King the marriage probably would have happened, but it was Aerys who was jealous of Tywin in many ways. The tourney seemed like the perfect place to broach the subject of marriage. Everyone is in a happy mood and King Aerys and his family are being honored in his House.

Broaching such delicate matters if foolish. Kevan himself says so. Even Robert understands that such things need to be done in private. Joffrey's betrothal to Margaery is an example of how these things tended to play out.

[Kuther2000]

I don't see it as Tywin wanting to be a part of the Stark, Baratheon, Tully alliance or whatever that means. Catelyn was bethrothed to Brandon at 12 which was the first marriage alliance between Stark and Tully. Catelyn is two years older than Jaime and Cersei so they would have been 10. By this time, Tywin had already rejected Elia. He still had it in his plans to marry Cersei to Rhaegar at this time. He probably still wanted Jaime to marry a Tully. Lyanna wasn't even bethrothed to Robert at this time so there wasn't any hint of an alliance. I see it as Tywin wanting the best marriages for his children so no bannerman would do. He wanted top Houses.

Broaching such delicate matters if foolish. Kevan himself says so. Even Robert understands that such things need to be done in private. Joffrey's betrothal to Margaery is an example of how these things tended to play out.

He did broach the subject in private that is when Aerys said that Rhaegar wouldn't marry a servant. No one besides the family knew about it or about him being rejected.

[Chaircat Meow]

I don't see it this way. Tywin seems to have had assurance from the King that Rhaegar would be betrothed to Cersei. He is not the sort of man to go around bragging about it to everyone unless he knew. Nor is he foolish enough to risk public rejection like that. The formal acceptance of betrothals is nothing more than pantomime. The real negotiations have been finished long before. Why else do you think Rhaegar and the king came to the Westerlands for a big tournament?

Joanna, probably wanted her children to marry her best friends children like people do. The same way Robert wanted his son to marry Ned's daughter. Not much more to it and Catelyn or Lysa would have been the best match, considering the way things were going.

Well something very fishy happened if all the real arrangements had been made. Maybe Rhaegar didn't like Cersei and Aerys tried to let Tywin down in a tactful way ... and screwed up (badly).

You are right that Joanna wanting marriages to friends is the most obvious answer to what it was all about.

[mrunderhill]

He did broach the subject in private that is when Aerys said that Rhaegar wouldn't marry a servant. No one besides the family knew about it or about him being rejected.

Well something very fishy happened if all the real arrangements had been made. Maybe Rhaegar didn't like Cersei and Aerys tried to let Tywin down in a tactful way ... and screwed up (badly).

You are right that Joanna wanting marriages to friends is the most obvious answer to what it was all about.

I can see Rhaegar not liking Cersei. Just like with Joffrey, I am sure there were bad rumours going around about her. She had already sent several girls away for telling tales and was cruel to the servants.

"You must be especially beautiful," Lady Genna told her, fussing with her dress, "for at the final feast it shall be announced that you and Prince Rhaegar are betrothed."

Genna's words here don't imply that Tywin is requesting something he is unsure of. It seems he has had confirmation and today is just the formal request and acceptance.

Compare that to what Tywin had said to her earlier, when he only hoped to marry her to Rhaegar.

When she was just a little girl, her father had promised her that she would marry Rhaegar. She could not have been more than six or seven. "Never speak of it, child," he had told her, smiling his secret smile that only Cersei ever saw. "Not until His Grace agrees to the betrothal. It must remain our secret for now."

Then something happens and all the plans are scrapped. There is no final feast and Aerys departs.

[Kuther2000]

"You must be especially beautiful," Lady Genna told her, fussing with her dress, "for at the final feast it shall be announced that you and Prince Rhaegar are betrothed."

Genna's words here don't imply that Tywin is requesting something he is unsure of. It seems he has had confirmation and today is just the formal request and acceptance.

Compare that to what Tywin had said to her earlier, when he only hoped to marry her to Rhaegar.

When she was just a little girl, her father had promised her that she would marry Rhaegar. She could not have been more than six or seven. "Never speak of it, child," he had told her, smiling his secret smile that only Cersei ever saw. "Not until His Grace agrees to the betrothal. It must remain our secret for now."

Then something happens and all the plans are scrapped. There is no final feast and Aerys departs.

Couldn't all this just be a case of why wouldn't Aerys marry his son to Tywin's daughter. Tywin is the second most powerful man in the seven Kingdoms. Tywin usually gets what he wants that is why whenever Jaime reboffs him it is so bad.

Why wouldn't Aerys marry Cersei to Rhaegar? It is a great match. Anyone outside looking in can see it. But we also know that Aerys lusted after Joanna Lannister. We know that Tywin did lot of the grunt work with the kingdom. We also know that Aerys was jealous of Tywin.

We even gets Tywin own words saying that Aerys said no to the marriage and said Rhaegar wouldn't marry a servant.

Aerys never agreed to the betrothal that is why it didn't happen.

It is always possible that something else happened, but some things are really as they appear. Not many people left would know the possible real reason and it would mean nothing for us to be told something this obscure.

[The Greenhand]

When Tywin told Elia's mother his daughter, Cercei was going to be the queen, and refused to make his daughter marry with Oberyn it turned out to become a race. Finally Martells won that.