Lady Of The Crossbow Inn

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  1. The link would be interesting, Reekazoid...we book readers know how Jon's teenage hormones were kicking in overtime at that point! Wow! How tame show Jon was! (and we know Kit had read the books by that point...so he knew too. Lol) But I still would debate the article I think. I still think in certain situations our 21st-century sensibilties would kick in no matter what, that there's a threshold. You mean that if you were really attracted to a hot-looking chick and you got close enough to get it on, only to find out that she smelled as if she hadn't properly bathed or deoderized herself in months, that she was hairy all over, that she apparently didn't know what toothpaste was, and her feet had moss, that you'd still be getting it on in all sorts of ways? I doubt it. You'd have to have been a concentration-camp survivor to want that. And let you folks think I'm exaggerating about all this, I once read a contemporary account of the murder of Thomas A' Beckett. The chronicler states that when they peeled off all the layers of clothing to wash his body for burial,he had so many lice that "the vermin boiled over from his robes like water spilling over the rim of a pot." Interestingly, people seem to have been cleaner in the Early Middle Ages; but once the overcrowding in Europe became a factor starting in about the late 1200's, and then after the Great Famine of 1315-1320, people became more like the stereotypical filthy Middle Ages person. And this pretty much continued all the ways through the 19th century and the advent of modern plumbing and sewage systems. But seriously...I'd like to know how those delicate fabrics and things are taken care of, we can do it with our modern systems, it's no problem for the costume designer. But imagine laundresses in the world of Westeros trying to do it!
  2. Okay, maybe I'm not being fair about the show at least, b/c this is fantasy cinema and there s always a level of Hollywood about most modern productions, in order to maintain a suspension of disbelief. But sometimes George is guilty of this as well, and it really bothers me. Or maybe this is just inevitable b/c we cannot help but look at this subject through a 21st-century lens, b/c this way of life described in the books and show is so remote and unknown to us. But here goes. I'm currently reading a new book called "Unmentionable: The Victorian Lady's Guide To Sex, Marriage, and Manners" by Therese O'Neill. It's easily the most fascinating thing I've read a long while. There have been a lot of books about daily life in Victorian times but this one goes a step further and discusses in great detail everything you were afraid to ask about, things like personal hygiene and feminine sanitary issues in an age without sewage treatment; (yes, there are illustrations), sexual practices and birth control (or lack thereof), even a whole chapter on how a modest Victorian Miss (who is really supposed to Know Nothing) copes with her wedding night. (All I can say is: YIKES.) Things like the manufacture and care of clothing how to cook, houseold management and working as a maid, how to serve dinner and have a party or reception, and even the correct way to walk down the street and behave in public. (OMG. Is all I can say...Saudi Arabia just don't compare. really. There was even a correct facial expression you were supposed to have....OMG.) One thing I have found out that really surprised me: Those gorgeous dresses, the kind worn over hoop skirts /aka GWTW dresses, were never washed. The cotton and linen underclothes were washed fairly often, but the dresses themselves, NEVER. B/c of the fabric and embellishments, it was impossible to wash them. In fact, just the opposite: sometimes they were hung in the er, "Necessary" so that all that "fresh air" (AHEM) might purge the lice and vermin from them. You can imagine how your typical ball was like, with all that heavily perfumed body odor and smelly dresses floating around. Now imagine a crowded train station or worse, a stagecoach or trolley....:) Once O'Neill gets into talking about "garderobes" in medieval castles and states that this is how Disney princesses most likely relieved themselves, and then says to tell your daughter about this to get her out of her annoying Disney princess phase, I was hooked. Which got me back to thinking about medieval hygeine and care of clothing, something I was already wondering about watching Season 7. I was already thinking HAS JON'S CAPE EVER BEEN WASHED??? but this book has got me going on steroids. George is sometimes very admirable in mentioning "the nitty gritty" in ASOIAF, He talks about things like Arya and Hot Pie and crew havi to be scrubbed free of lice and vermin at the Harrenhal baths, characters needing to pee (and yes, contrary to the Bran thread below, we also have a Jon relieving himself against a tree at Craster's and Aeron Greyoy's ahem, ability to put out a hearthfire before he became the Damphair.) Evil characters have rotten teeth or scraggly filthy hair or clothes that..let's not go there. We have Sam seeing mice and Cersei cracking open an undercooked egg to find an undeveloped chick inside, and a memorable scene at Winterfell where the cold forces everyone, including the horses, inside and soon it's implied that not just the animals are pooping on the floor. And you think: wow, this is real. This is the nitty-gritty. But this NEVER occurs with our heroes and often not with the principal baddies as well.Characters journey from North to South still wearing their hot northern furs in warm weather and never appear to break a sweat; (ie Ned in KL, Sam back at his home. Not even Sam's sis frowns meeting Sam still wearing his blacks, or perfume-smelling Gilly.) None of the Dothraki women ever suffered from yeast infections, apparently. I can tell you that in real life, Jon would NEVER be enchanted with the smell of Ygritte's hair, it would probably be lice-ridden, and most likely his own by that point, that many weeks from the Wall. And for those of you who know the far racier cave scene from the books, my eyes were popping out of my skull. You recall that Jon gives Ygritte "the lord's kiss" while she is...ahem, (as Deadpool would say) "Sitting on his face." (She straddles him and asks him to do it that way.) I leave it up to you to imagine what this would be like with a Ygritte who was only as clean as an icy-cold stream several days ago could make her...and furs that most likely were NEVER EVER washed, inside or out. What did all those Wildlings stuck at Hardhome do if anything to keep themselves clean, I wonder, or could they, living in that icy environment. I mean think about it...months with no equivalent of toothpaste, deodarent, or even toilet paper, not so much as a handful of tree leaves to use. (Gods bless you, or not, Allister Thorne.) Add to this that most women never shaved their bodies either...(didn't Natalia Tena try to address this?) So yes, Jon knocking on that door must have been terrified in more ways than one. Dany has her retinue to keep her spiffy and her clothes washed and hair impeccably washed and braided at all times, but I wish we had seen his squire and mini-retinue. I'm sure that his hair was shampooed and his hair pomade was not bear grease or animal-grease based, that it smelled like hairspray, that his armor had been scrubbed and all that leather as well, that his breath was Listerine-fresh no matter what he ate (and yes, everyones' teeth is sparkling white) and when Dany peeled all those clothes off, that he smelled everywhere like sandalwood or some other spice from the Summer Isles. Not to mention his feet after walking around constantly indoors in boots. Interestingly, Martin is always mentioning that Littlefinger's breath smells like mint. And of course we all know that Varys is probably the best-smelling guy in the Seven Kingdoms. And that they are two shady characters on opposite sides of the chaotic coin. What is Martin trying to say here? LOL. Sorry, but my mind has just gone here. How did people ever live back then??!
  3. MinscS2, sorry I missed yr reply to my LOTR post. Yes, that's interesting too, I never thought of the parallels between Jon and Aragorn, as well as Jon and Frodo. However, there's Tolkien's Aragorn and PJ's Aragorn. PJ took the somewhat more traditional heroic-fantasy archetype of Aragorn from the books and turned him into a post-modern creation...or as much as possible in this High Fantasy saga. In the books, whatever inner conflict Aragorn may or may not have suffered about fulfilling his destiny as the Heir of Elendil, it mostly happens off-stage, prior to the story I think. He's always twitching aside his cloak in key moments in the story and talking about his sword and its history and who he is (numerous examples abound) talking as if he knew and embraced this all along. Whereas in the films he is nowhere near at peace with himself even well into TTT, and wrestles with his inner demons/doubts over what he sees as his perceived inability to withstand the Ring's temptation, he thinks he is cursed by the weakness of his ancestors. He clearly does not see himself as ready for the tests the Quest will present to him, thinks he will fail, and it ultimately takes only Arwen's belief in him--which she has to coax him into accepting--to get him to set out at all. PJ also altered the character of Faramir, Tolkien's heroic and noble Scholar-warrior who many think was Tolkien's alter-ego in the story, the one who not pick up the Ring "if he found it lying by the side of the road," and changed him into a son who was more obsessed in proving himself to his harsh father than in the book, and was willing to deliver the Ring to him as a weapon, even though he knew how dangerous it could potentially be. In both cases much darker characters. One of the most interesting scenes in PJ's Trilogy is in the last 15 minutes of FOTR when Frodo offers Aragorn the Ring: "Would YOU destroy it?" And Aragorn almost gives in. And based on his being correct about this perceived inherent weakness, this is what makes him want to acede to Frodo's decision to set off for Mordor alone. "I would have gone with you to the end..into the very fires of Mordor." Frodo: "I know. Look after the others...esp Sam, he would not understand"etc. Even more interesting is that this comes after Frodo also offered the Ring to Galadriel in Lorien, in a similar vein. And after "passing the Test," she says: "You begin to see with a very keen eye." Notably, the Galadriel scene is from the book; but Frodo offering Aragorn the Ring is not. It's a scene that Peter, Fran and Philippa invented. It is as if Frodo is beginning to be corrupted by the Ring in his perverse desire to tempt others and see if they are as impervious as he is to the lure of Power. If he is beginning to enjoy this testing of people--if he begins to think himself superior-- then just that belief, that lack of proper Humility, itself is corruption too. At this point in the FOTR film we already know that Frodo is already becoming very possessive of the Ring and will not give it up, so when he asks Aragorn this question he is clearly NOT asking this legedary character to take over the Quest from himself, a helpless hobbit. He now sees himself as Aragorn's equal and is testing Aragorn's mettle in that regard. Anyway, this is a much darker Aragorn than in the books (oh, and add to this his ambivalence about his relationship with Arwen in the films; he wants her to leave b/c he does not want her to sacrifice her mortality, even for him; in the books of course The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen is almost appendice-only but there was no doubt in that regard; she just waited for him.) The point I'm making is that there were differences between books and films in LOTR too. So the Jon that you want to see--and the Jon I want to see--the "Aragorn" Jon with the semi-happy ending--may not come to pass. I'm still dreading the Jon/Frodo ending, where Jon wants the Throne/power in the end and is "Divinely" punished for it. it depends on just how far George takes the "Scouring" parallel..and if D/D do end at the same place George does, even with any and all show divergences. Honestly, I think it could go either way...it's a Targaryen 50/50 coin toss!
  4. Well, as an aside regarding falling in love quickly. True-life story: In 1992, just before U2's ZooTV Tour began, Phil Joanou, then the band's filmographer, met a spry lass whom he proceeded to marry *less than 48 hours later*. Yep. 2 days, from first laying eyes on each other, to the Vegas chapel, I think it was. We know this b/c Bono couldn't stop blabbing about it onstage almost every night, and even brought the happy couple onstage a few times. I think even they were clearly in awe. Of course, they divorced only 7 months later (I'd have been very surprised if that lasted!) but in retrospect....SOMEBODY GOT THOSE TWO BOAT TICKETS. Teenage me used to wonder what their...um..."courtship" was like. Holy...moly.
  5. JcMontea, I took a long time editing my Jon/Frodo posts. I added a lot to them, both of them. So go back and read them, and reply if you want. There's a lot more there. MinscS2, you too if you have read them. To the posters who are in the Jon/Jorah discussion. Someone should post a link to the Dany/Jorah scene in "The Door." Fascinating stuff, a season and a half on. Ian and Kit are both really fantastic at coaxing a great performance out of Emilia. Yes, Kit too. There, I said it. Put my head on a spike:) Gods, so many great posts. 3 or 4 major ways this Northern thing could go and compelling arguments for all of them. I just hope the tension between and Jon and Dany..they won' make us hate them. the show-runners hate the Starks, they've made that plain time and again. I swear, I can't forget, still, how they genuinely seemed to be surprised at the uproar over Sansa in Season 5. Or how they've turned Bran into a mental-stalking creep. I mean, trying to suss out an active plot for Bran is hard, I admit, if I was the writer... when he's just learning to see things and eating Jojen paste at this point in the books, but come on. There are many things they could have done with Bran rather than have him turn into a robotic, maybe-weirnet-porn-watching creep. And someone PLEASE explain to me why they cut out the apparent ONE brief scene with Ghost yet kept Bronn's c*** jokes to Jamie in. So I don't think they mean for us to be liking Jon very much by the end of this. I expect him to die, but I don't mind characters dying if they die the right way...or at least the way they deserve to. With people honoring and respectng them. Yes, even the bad guys. Which he will never be....we hope..
  6. One last post. In general, I hate the whole way this thing has been built up. The first season and the last season book-ending each other in the overall plot being about incest. Dave and Dan have openly admitted that their favorite House is the Lannisters, when George never chooses favorites, that's why his story is so compelling. the Starks don't adhere to their worldview, "nothing is nothing," "f*** the gods," etc. ..*Sigh*. And the whole plot is about how Ned and many others are destroyed, so that Jamie and Cersei can successfully keep their twin bro-sis relationship a secret and put their incest babies, one of whom is an absolute monster, on the throne. Never mind that there is a prophecy that those incest babies are going to die and that they themselves may fall; what matters is that for many years, Jamie and Cersei enjoy private happiness in their incestuous relationship and get to see fruit of their incest rule. they are rewarded for their ruthlessness and treachery in order to do this. No great Southern Houses ever get in an uproar over THEIR incest. So for a while they live the dream, or most of it. Yes, there's Tywin, but still. Their goals are realized, and they can take pleasure from that. Yes, I know this is the canon AGOT book plot, but I very highly doubt that the final 2 books are going to be such a perfect inverse bookend of the Season 8 plot. We are going to feel far more ambiguous about the "bride of fire" when reading those pages than we will seeing the show from Season 7/7 onwards. Again: complex character development/situations. The Long Night is going to be much worse in the books than in the show, so who knows? The way the show has made us so completely forget this, by season 5 and the infamous Jamie/Cersei rape scene, the outcry was just over the seeming rape, NOT the fact that that a twin brother raping his sister and bumping against the corpse of their incest love child as they couple on the floor. (Yes, there was a moment where Joff's body is bumped into and shakes. Correct me if I'm wrong, but absolutely NOBODY in the media was howling "INCEST!!", just RAPE, and Lena and Nikolai weren't sticking their tongues out and going "EWWW! I'm so sorry!" in HBO interviews were they? No, b/c Dave and Dan just pleasure in shock for the scene's sake, but we did NOT have the incest shoved in our face. No, instead their relationship has been presented as noble and beautiful, "us against the hostile world" etc. Think about it. Every season seems to begin with a Lannister mourning their dead, and we as the audience are led to grieve with them, with sad music. Nobody else seems to grieve for dead on this show. But Jon and Dany are herded together in 5 short episodes--loaded with subtle romance; charged all the more for that--and then the incest thing in not only mashed in our faces like a pie, but we are already being told that they will be punished for it. It's almost as if Dave and Dan are taking pleasure in building up something they know fans want==precisely not b/c we are in love with Hollywood cliche, but for the simple reason that people cling to the hope that SOME good things still exist in the world--and they do in the books, not on the show--but "nothing is nothing", D/D are much more nihilistic than even George can be-- and then destroying it. I don't know why anyone would take pleasure in that. Now something like this may or may not pan out in the books, as far as the Jonearys thing not working out (I stick by my opinion is that Jon is like Frodo and will die in the end, he will have to sacrifice himself, practically as a way to win the War for the Dawn, but existentially for the sin of suddenly wanting power/giving in to the Ring moment, this would be George's twist on Frodo "having no honor in his own country", as it says in the Scouring of the Shire chapter. But we are most defenitely NOT going to be grimacing and recoiling in disgust at the very mention of them as a couple as we read the final 2 books. It'll be more complicated than that....as it should be. As to Jorah. I think he was always meant to be the surrogate father to Jon and Dany's inevitable child after Jon, or Dany,, or both, dies. Jorah is a fascinating character in the books, he is clearly on a redemption arc but personality-wise it is hard at this point to see anything developing between them as far as romance goes and I don't think it will come to that. O t may. But he is too much of a father-figure at this point and all through the books Dany has been spouting off at how repugnant it would be for her to be with men who are 2 or 3 times her age. She may eventually love him but not as she would a young man. But Book Jorah is so far from show-Jorah even at the end of Book 5/Season 5 I can't wait to see this develop anyway. Of course I am talking George's "ugly bear" as opposed to Ian Glen, though...so even in the show, if it is Dany and Jorah at the end, it may be quite different. (Doggone it but that KISS though...I continue to curse Dave and Dan to the seventh hell that we didn't get that scene in the early seasons!!!I can't read that without needing new smallclothes! Damn you Nina Gold and your impeccable casting:) We do not know how Jonaerys will develop in the books of course (but it will), but athis point in the story Jon is much more honorable character. How will Jon betray Dany for love? Idk? all we know is that at this point at the end of ADWD Dany is beginning to see Jorah as a father-like figure. I stress "only beginning." "My bear, my old sweet bear, who loved me and betrayed me." She had missed him so. She wanted to see his ugly face, to wrap her arms around him and press herself against his chest..." Jorah is like Jon another tragic character but unlike Jon his flaws are more pronounced. There is that matter of selling the poachers on Bear island into slavery in order to continue to keep his trophy wife living in style. Jorah rushing into marriage to Lynesse Hightower...the Westerosi equivalent of taking the Manhattan wife back to Peoria...well. So what betrayal would Dany suffer at the hands of Jon would be so much worse than what Jorah did that got him exiled twice? It would have to be pretty bad. I'm just throwing this out there. Not only that, but Jorah expresses the "fire and blood" harsh conquest Targaryen POV at this point in the book story (end of Book 5) more than Dany does. He is theruthless hard-liner: "I was tired, Jorah. I was weary of war. I wanted to rest, to laugh, to plant trees and watch them grow. I am only a young girl." (Somehow, we never see this Dany on the show!) No. You are the blood of the dragon. Dragons plant no trees. remember that. Remember who you are, what you were born to be. Remember your words." "Fire and blood," Dany told the swaying grass. I have long thought that the conversation between Dany and Jorah in Season 6 "The Door," is one of the best in the whole series. Such layers of nuance, I have seen it dozens of times and still marvel at the subtle undercurrents, both in verbal and body language. Both even say so much with their.eyes. And this is for a reason. it's where Jon and Dany have been starting to go, and would go, if they'd have had 4 seasons to develop. Sometime I will break it down. But I feel there is a payoff for that scene coming and I can't wait to see it. Dammit, it's complicated. I'd be happy with Dany ending up with either. As long as Jon got to hold his kid before he goes, and entrust to Jorah. OMG will he get Longcllaw back too?? *CRIES* Excuse long and rambling post. It's very late and I won't torture any more.
  7. MinscS2: Now to my reply to your Tolkien analysis. Bravo: could not have said it better myself. But allow me to add something I've been thinking about a lot since the Finale. Jon as Frodo, and how this may influence what may pan out in the books as well as the show after Season 7/in A Dream Of Spring (if we see it.) (One thing you can't compare the two though...I've never forgiven The Professor for having Frodo die a virgin. I suppose it's the Christ-like thing....but we don't know that either...stop you, too much Dan Brown novels Lol. But anyway, for a guy who dreamed up Beren and Luthien, a guy who knew his "O's"! from his "A's!" This is unforgivable. Minsc, if you've read "The Lays Of Beleriand" you'd know what I meant... I hope you do! If not, I'll be happy to enlighten you. My eyes almost fell out of my skull!) First, there is an obvious link between Jon and Frodo literally. I can't remember where I saw the interview, but I think George talked at one point about getting his idea to kill off major characters/"no-one is safe" idea from LOTR, specifically when it looked like Tolkien had killed off Frodo at the end of TTT. And I was in shock after listening to this b/c *it all makes perfect sense." Critics have savaged Tolkien for generations b/c of....how did the NYT review put it..."Ooooh, those awful Orcs"? Thinking he was goody two-shoes when he too was busy subverting fantasy tropes. (BTW I thank all the old gods and the new that I was fortunate to have read LOTR before Peter Jackson's films came out, and was completely Unsullied when I read them, I'd heard of Tolkien of course but fantasy was not my thing. One day a couple of yrs before the films came about, in the mid-90's, I bit the bullet. The only thing I knew of the story was some of the Hobbit names b/c I'd read as a kid in National Geographic articles on Jane Goodall and how she named some of her chimps Bilbo, Frodo, Drogo, etc. "Oh wow, so THAT's where these names come from!" LOL. But THANK GOD I was so ignorant! It made discovering his work all the better experience ) But anyway, think about it. First Gandalf "dies", then Boromir is seduced by the Ring and tries to steal it, then he gets killed, Merry and Pippin are captured by the orcs and will probably be gruesomely killed, Frodo and Sam disappear, traveling to Mordor alone...oh, and let's not forget Frodo's vision on the Seat of Seeing, when Sauron almost discovers him..so at the end of FOTR, when most fantasy stories have a slowly building fellowship/seeming initial hopeful start to the heroic Quest, everything is already falling apart and going to s**t. WOW! And then I laughed when George talked about his reaction to Frodo getting stung by Shelob at the very end of TTT and how he had to wait a whole year for ROTK to come out to see if he was still alive. I CAN'T IMAGINE having to have to wait that long to find out.... ..or can we? Frodo seemingly getting killed by Shelob in the last pages of TTT, and Jon "dying" at the very end of ADWD? Hmmm right? We're in a similar situation as book readers who can't wait for the Jon chapter. (can we imaging book release parties for TWOW, people getting out of bookstores clutching their copies, "QUICK! What page is the Jon chapter start????" So why would George have Jon "dying" in the seeming middle of his saga, just as Tolkien had Frodo almost dead in the middle of his? And in both cases in the very last pages of the book? Can one be evoking the other? More and more I have been comparing the two. There would have been no way for even the masterful Peter Jackson and Fran Walsh to evoke the "Sea-Longing" in the movies, but there was Frodo first hearing the murmering of the treetops when he looks out the window of the house of Bombadil, and it sounds like breaking waves on the shore..., a sound which of course he had never before heard...and from then on it is as if he is fated for death. And any elf who hears any sound of the Sea, waves/gulls/etc is doomed in a sense, he or she can never stay in Middle-earth. And even in the films there is the sense that anyone who has possessed the Ring, even for the briefest time, whether or not they give in to it, is likewise doomed. The ones who prove true are still bound for the Sea. Likewise, there are signs that Jon has had a fated life even from childhood (naming his wolf "Ghost" b/c that's how he sees himself, etc. He has his friends but he like Frodo is a solitary figure, set apart even though a has a few close friends (ie Jon/Sam.) And say what you will of Dave and Dan's script, you have to hand it to them, they ARE masters of foreshadowing in the show, a lot of it more subtle than you'd think. I'mnow going back and rewatching for Jon clues. And the sense that he is inexorably marching along to some great doom/fate. But what I am thinking of, and here is where Season 8 predication comes in, is how people keep forgetting that FRODO FAILED. he did NOT destroy the Ring, Gollum did and that was pure dumb chance. "I will not do what I came here to do. The Ring is mine!" This was not inherent evil on Frodo's part; Tolkien had a much darker worldview than critics give him credit for, Just as he believed Eras of good and evil were cyclical ("always, after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again", a line from Gandalf I WISH had made it into the movies) he also seemed to be saying that in the end, if you remained close to the sources of Power, NO-ONE not even the purest most innocent person, was exempt from its deadly lure..everyone would give in finally at some point. So here's what I see happening in the Season 8. Jon and Dany get to Winterfell. By then, after at least 2 weeks on the ship (b/c we know it takes at least 2 weeks for a ship to get from Oldtown to Bear Island as per Jorah; KL to Eastwatch might be a similar distance/timeframe? [At which point Jon will be staggering up the steps every morning going on deck, Dany will be struggling not to cling to the rails, and the crew will be ready to mutiny from lack of sleep at night, not to mention some of the passengers too. It's a very small flagship and those walls arent' sound-proofed! *CHORTLE* sorry I had to! ) and a few weeks travel on foot to Winterfell, plenty of time for Dany to know for sure. A month of travel at least...she can't fly the retinue on Drogon to this one. Whereupon Bran and Sam drop the truth bombs. Reaction? We shall see. Then Dany takes Jon aside and spills the beans of *her* news to Jon. And while Jon is reeling from all this, who should ride into town but Jamie with the epic news of Cersei's betrayal. And to top it off, Sansa is in total panic mode with ravens pouring in left and right from Northern towns with WW's army bearing down on them. This makes Jon not Stark-angry, but Targaryen- ballistic over Cersei's betrayal. We don't know how his relationship with Dany will be at this point regarding the baby/incest/marriage/succession? ( Sudden thought: Can ship captains perform marriages in Westeros, like in our world? HUH GEORGE??? Or Elio and Linda, where's your lore on this one??!? Maybe their relationship is further along than thought? I know. totally silly. Won't happen. But the mind goes in strange directions, munching the popcorn. What if the news of Cersei's betrayal coupled with the WW invasion/Wall coming down with undead Viserion's help makes him change his mind about the Iron Throne and he is sick of betrayal? Esp when he now sees he has a potential male Heir coming if he marries Dany? Everyone talks as if Jon never could want power b/c that's the way he is. But what if he has his "The Ring is MINE" moment and decides that yes, he IS the rightful heir and decides that he DOES want the Throne? What could be more tragic than Jon, the rightful Heir and potentially the best Ruler, suddenly wanting the Throne for all the right reasons (to save the world/help the people) and is "punished" by the gods/Fate/ whatever for this "sin" and does not get the throne. What if the sudden lure of the IT is his "Ring" his test, and he fails. Thus is his fate to Die, or go off into exile in the North, like Paul Atredies at the end of the Dune saga, after Chani dies gving birth to his twins...(ASOIAF always reminds me of Dune too, the characters thinking in italics, the fueding Houses of the Lansraad, etc.)
  8. I have a reply to another someone else about Tolkien/ASOIAF, so I'll put that in another post. But if you folks don't mind, I'll copy from my tattered ACOK paperback the relevant parts of the Dany's House Of The Undying prophecies that foretell a lot of what we're talking about. Longtime lurker, but haven't posted much, I hope y'all don't mind. "I have come for the gift of truth," Dany said. "In the long hall, the things I saw...were they true visions, or lies? What did they mean?" ...the shape of shadows....morrows not yet made...drink from the cup of ice...drink from the cup of fire... ..mother of dragons...child of three... "Three?" She did not understand. ...three heads has the dragon...[the ghost chorus yammered inside her skull with never a lip moving, never a breath stirring the cold blue air..]...mother of dragons...child of storm......three fires must you light...one for life and one for death and one to love... .[I interpret this as three pyres she must light so that she can be reborn again physically and spiritually...the first was Mirri Maz Durr/Drogo/birth of dragons, the second is probably like Season 6 on the Dothraki Sea, the book may well have something similar so that Dany can become the new Khal of Khals in Dothraki eyes.before she can begin her conquest of Westeros...and the third? Don't know yet of course..but I hope it doesn't involve a Nissa Nissa-like thing with Jon. Or maybe her book ordeal in the Dothraki Sea after she flies off on Drogon for the first time was the second "fire", she was burnt by the dragon, and her illness/miscarriage.suffering is a sort of transformative ordeal,and the Dothraki sea pyre would be the third. Hopefully this is how it will pan out.] *three mounts must you ride..one to bed and one to dread and one to love...* [Dany will have three husbands: Drogo "one to bed", Hizdhar zo Loraq of Meereen, she will "dread" b/c she hates compromise w/slavers+ is he the Harpy?) and one to love....Jon, more on this in a minute, it becomes clearer]* three treasons will you know...once for blood and once for gold and once for love...[lots of debate on this; some think the MMD was the "blood" one, Brown Ben Plumm the "gold" one and Jorah the "love" one, but the "love" one could end up being either Tyrion or Jon still]. "I don't understand," she said, more loudly. "Help me...show me..." ..help her...the whispers mocked. ...show her... Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and sliver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him.[A grown Rhaego obviously; the show's version of this was Dany seeing him as an infant in Drogo's arms.] Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmered a woman's name [Rhaegar of course, , and we all know by now the name he said had to be Lyanna]. ...mother of dragons, daughter of death.... Now here's where it gets interesting. "Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. [Mel in ADWD noting how Jon's shadow on the Wall is so tall; can a resurrected Jon cast no shadows?***OOPS: Just remembered Jon's eye color SORRY. Still interesting though. Who would "cast no shadow"?)] A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire...mother of dragons, slayer of lies....[Is this an image from Dany in Westeros, "slaying" Cersei's lies?] a corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. {This is certainly Aeron Damphair, dead at the end of "The Forsaken"...DAMMIT] Now here it is, folks. *DRUMROLL*: "A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness...mother of dragons, bride of fire..." Show-only folks don't get this, but Lyanna Stark is associated with blue roses. I think she wears them to the Tourney at Harrenhal and all the fan art depicts Lyanna wearing them. In AGOT book, Ned remembers Lyanna's death, in "a room that smelled of blood and roses." ("Promise me," she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses." We didn't see the roses, just the blood, in the Tower of Joy 6.10 obviously. And WHY D/D couldn't have shown Lyanna with Blue roses in her hair in the wedding scene...this REALLLLY irritiates me...would it have broken the budget guys?) And interestingly, the only other time a character is associated with flowers is when Daario courts Dany by picking flowers for her. I think this is in the show. Linking Lyanna with Dany OMG foreshadowing I HOPE NOT DAMMIT again] The "wall of ice" is obviously Jon. And SWEETNESS. (ie Jon is the "mount to love.") and finally...BRIDE of fire. Not boyfriend, not paramour, not one-night fling. She is his BRIDE.Jon: groom of Ice, Dany bride of fire. Of course Jon is ice and fire but they are also one of each. I don't see how George can write his way out of this one in order to contradict D/D's script for the show, unless he wants to pull a D/D-like total contradication of what he wrote long ago. And he began changing the plot of a certain character after Season 5, not Season 7, so we know this is not Jon, prob Sansa or Stannis. They will marry at some point. maybe after a tempestuous courtship/Trident/who knows? And there might still be betrayal...but if the impending second "dance of dragons" in the books involved Jon and Dany facing off against each other as enemies, and not Dany and fAegon, why the "sweetness"? The prophecy could have explicitly linked sweetness, with betrayal....but it does not. Everything in the Undying visions after this sentence is a jumble involving nothing in particular, and it is brief before Drogon kills the Undying and rescues Dany. On the show if there is any "dance of dragons" I think D/D will steal George's old rejected storyline and have tension between Jon and Tyrion..who may be a Targ himself.