Why did King Aerys kill Brandon Stark? and his father?

[SerFelixCulpa]

It seemed to me to be formal enough. Of course may be according to Westerosi law unless you quack like a duck three times when you ask for justice you are allowed to be burned but technicalities aside Brandon was within his rights. He came and demanded justice. He DIDN'T use force - he didn't attack Rhaegar - he asked him to go out and duel. May be it wasn't smart - but that is besides the point.

He told Rhaegar to come out and die. That's what we know. Maybe he patiently explained to whomever that he was really there to demand justice for his sister, but that's not in evidence.

Exactly my point. Arys was wrong right out of hand to condemn Starks because they were right to demand justice for Lyanna's kidnapping.

We don't really know if they were "right" or not to demand this (we suspect it strongly of course), but beyond this, what we know is that Aerys simply condemned them to death and then Rickard demanded trial by combat. We don't know why he formally said they were to be executed, and we certainly don't know it's because they demanded "justice" for Lyanna. Aerys was crazy, you see.

May be not by Ragaer himself but by a kingsguard . But that doesn't mean he wasn't legaly right to demand the trial - ergo Arys arresting him instead of listening to himy as giving the satisfaction he was entitled to (in whatever form) was wrong.

Again we don't know what Brandon demanded or why he was imprisoned other than that he rode into KL angry and calling for Rhaegar to come out and die. It would be nice if we did, but GRRM hasn't really provided us those details yet.

I personaly didn't hear of that one. I heard about crown immunity from court proceeding since powers of courts come from crown but i am not sure if that is not from the period of absolutist monarchy. I personally remember Magna Carta issues arising from crown not holding to it's obligations, but may be I mix stuff up. We know very well that in Westeros king's family can be judged - see dunk and egg, see recent dealings with Cersei and Margery.

The entire concept of sovereign immunity in modern law comes from the ancient precept that the sovereign is incapable of doing wrong. In practice there are exceptions, then and now. However, I find it highly unlikely that one of them is, "Someone can ride into town spitting mad, and because of 'justice' challenge the heir to the kingdom to a duel."

In point of fact, Aerys was probably well within his rights and even wise to detain Brandon and his friends (in comfort would be wisest) and call for Rickard to come and help sort the whole thing out. Aerys did not know where Rhaegar was. It is at least arguable on the evidence we have that it was only when Aerys went on a condemnation/barbeque spree that it became clear that something had gone badly wrong.

[Darkvarg]

Aerys was mad and liked to kill people. He even found burning people to death sexually arousing. So when he thinks someone is doing something "treasonous"--like publicly threatening the life of his heir, that's rather damning--he goes all out.

No, not everything about Robert's Rebellion is explained, but from the text, we can surmise that:

1. Rhaegar runs off with Lyanna. She may have been kidnapped, but probably agreed to go.

2. Brandon rides to the Red Keep in a rage to challenge Rhaegar to a duel, calling for him to "come out and die." Rhaegar isn't there. He's probably at the Tower of Joy with Lyanna, or on his way there.

3. Aerys arrests Brandon & Co and summons their fathers.

4. The fathers arrive, thinking they're going to do the medieval equivalent of posting bail for their sons (guaranteeing that they won't try to kill Rhaegar). Aerys has them all killed, gruesomely. Then he thinks about who else is likely to be pissed about these developments, and orders Jon Arryn to turn in Robert and Ned, who are in the Vale.

5. Arryn rebels so he doesn't have to do that. Robert and Ned rebel because Aerys wants to kill them, because Aerys killed Ned's father and brother and because Rhaegar kidnapped Robert's fiance. Others (i.e. the Tullys) join them for strategic reasons and because they're sick of the Mad King.

And there you go. Rebellion.

Man if GRRM released a book based on this time it would be Awesome....

[Faint]

Because that would be telling. ;-)

That is basically my working theory on the issue at the moment. That it really is not alltogether realistic for the characters in the story to give such little thought to the issue, especially considering how many prominent people it involved (i.e., Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent, Gerold Hightower, Lyanna Stark, Ashara Dayne, Ned Stark, etc.) but to do otherwise would let the cat out of the bag way too early.

It would be like having a neon sign reading "R + L = J."

I always thought that pure romantic love OR the unfulfilled prophesy of the PTWP was more than enough reasoning... well it was enough for -naive- me!

That is the actual reasoning for why it happened but that has nothing to do with the fact that almost nobody knows this or nobody ponders about it either.

He gave her a flower and named her queen of beauty or whatever at a tourney. Then she disappears with him. It was assumed that he (Rhaegar) became infatuated with her and simply 'kidnapped' her. Of course, some people are probably wiser to the truth than others...

Yes, but even assuming the simplest explanation -- which, by the way, shouldn't stop people from thinking about it, given how important it all was -- there are so many loose ends.

As I noted above, think of the number of prominent people involved (i.e., Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent, Gerold Hightower, Lyanna Stark, Ashara Dayne, Ned Stark, etc.). If for nothing else, you would think that fact would make the events surrounding the whole issue an endless source of speculation.

I could come up with a dozen questions that everybody should be asking but which go completely unasked regarding it all.

[Serie]

That is the actual reasoning for why it happened but that has nothing to do with the fact that almost nobody knows this or nobody ponders about it either.

oh I think I misunderstood your original post.... I thought that by "nobody" you meant the readers, not ASOIAF characters... :dunno:

yeah, now it makes sense :) If I remember correctly only Barristan Selmy and Cersei (apart from Ned) dare to touch this delicate issue... as for Doran, well, even his own daughter is unaware of his secret agenda so... my guess is that people don't talk about it because its a thing that belongs to the past. And if our beloved author meant the R+L=J theory to be the big surprise, he wouldn't give much info about it through other POVs, no?

[Faint]

And if our beloved author meant the R+L=J theory to be the big surprise, he wouldn't give much info about it through other POVs, no?

As I said, that's my theory on it.

Imagine if we had a Jaime POV going "Wait a minute, why were the king's guard protecting Lyanna Stark?" Or Doran pondering how his sister could not have any more children. And so forth.

R + L = J would be dead obvious at that point.

[tze]

I think Aerys was having prophetic dreams about the Starks, and in trying to forestall those dreams, ended up making them come true.

In the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, for example, we're told that "the king himself urged men to challenge [the Knight of the Laughing Tree], declaring that the face behind that helm was no friend of his." Why would Aerys have feared a mystery knight? What was the impetus here? Well, we know the Targs have a history of self-fulfilling prophetic dreams (see, e.g., Egg's older brother Prince Dareon). Aerys might easily have dreamed of the KOTLT (who was probably Lyanna Stark) bringing down destruction on him. If he dreamed about Brandon and Rickard doing the same, it would clarify a number of things: why he was so keen on brutally murdering them (even though he suspected Rhaegar, who Brandon was threatening, was plotting against Aerys himself), why he sent for the head of Ned (but not Benjen, who we know ended up taking no part in the Rebellion). It would also clarify why he wanted Robert's head, when Robert hadn't done anything yet. If Aerys was having dreams about the upcoming Rebellion, but was just too foolish to realize that his own actions were causing his prophetic dreams to come true, then I think his actions start making a lot more sense.

[Catastrophe]

Because Aerys was a stupid, crazy, evil old shit.

[SerFelixCulpa]

I think Aerys was having prophetic dreams about the Starks, and in trying to forestall those dreams, ended up making them come true.

That's an interesting theory, though I think it just as likely that Aerys' madness was acting as a vector for prophecy rather than any "conscious" choice to attempt to thrart it on Aerys' part. If the Targs really are bound up in prophecies, it seems to me the occasional hereditary outbreak of madness probably serves that end.

[The Frosted King]

Aerys killed Brandon and Eddard because he'd forgotten one of the main tenemants of feudalism.

One, if the crown prince absconds with the daughter of a paramount lord, that isn't something to be swallowed.

Two, even if something crazy goes down like the heir to a major lord comes riding into the capital demanding royal blood, you have a trial and make it just.

That way you avoid the public taint of tyranny.

Killing the heirs of two paramount lords, ie(former kings) is madness and was bound to throw the realm into war. Doing so against fire itself was only going to hasten the fall of the dynasty.

Once the Targs lost their dragons, they went to a first among equals positioning, even if they weren't aware of it themselves.

[houseHB]

A song of Ice and fire is the poor mans sequel and Roberts Rebellion is the grand prequel

[Lord Damian]

First you kill the king then the prince becomes a king so that you kill two kings. Initially, I thought Aerys was trying to hatch an egg with Rickard and Brandon's deaths but apparently Brandon was not burned so it would not work anyway. Aerys deserved to die, I just wish it was in his face so he could face fear. Should have made him drink wildfire and told him, if you turn into a dragon, we will worship you, if you die, we will give you a state funeral, now drink asshole.

[Howling Mad]

I think Aerys was having prophetic dreams about the Starks, and in trying to forestall those dreams, ended up making them come true. In the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, for example, we're told that "the king himself urged men to challenge [the Knight of the Laughing Tree], declaring that the face behind that helm was no friend of his." Why would Aerys have feared a mystery knight? What was the impetus here? Well, we know the Targs have a history of self-fulfilling prophetic dreams (see, e.g., Egg's older brother Prince Dareon). Aerys might easily have dreamed of the KOTLT (who was probably Lyanna Stark) bringing down destruction on him. If he dreamed about Brandon and Rickard doing the same, it would clarify a number of things: why he was so keen on brutally murdering them (even though he suspected Rhaegar, who Brandon was threatening, was plotting against Aerys himself), why he sent for the head of Ned (but not Benjen, who we know ended up taking no part in the Rebellion). It would also clarify why he wanted Robert's head, when Robert hadn't done anything yet. If Aerys was having dreams about the upcoming Rebellion, but was just too foolish to realize that his own actions were causing his prophetic dreams to come true, then I think his actions start making a lot more sense.

I think your theroy has merit. Regarding BenJen - he does take part in the rebellion as the Stark in Winterfell. As a child "wolf pup" Areys had little need to request his presence at court which had it been demaned would only of raised suspicion.

[Lord Damian]

I think Aerys was having prophetic dreams about the Starks, and in trying to forestall those dreams, ended up making them come true.

In the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, for example, we're told that "the king himself urged men to challenge [the Knight of the Laughing Tree], declaring that the face behind that helm was no friend of his." Why would Aerys have feared a mystery knight? What was the impetus here? Well, we know the Targs have a history of self-fulfilling prophetic dreams (see, e.g., Egg's older brother Prince Dareon). Aerys might easily have dreamed of the KOTLT (who was probably Lyanna Stark) bringing down destruction on him. If he dreamed about Brandon and Rickard doing the same, it would clarify a number of things: why he was so keen on brutally murdering them (even though he suspected Rhaegar, who Brandon was threatening, was plotting against Aerys himself), why he sent for the head of Ned (but not Benjen, who we know ended up taking no part in the Rebellion). It would also clarify why he wanted Robert's head, when Robert hadn't done anything yet. If Aerys was having dreams about the upcoming Rebellion, but was just too foolish to realize that his own actions were causing his prophetic dreams to come true, then I think his actions start making a lot more sense.

Considering this outstanding post, It appears that Targs are gifted with seeing into the future. Dany has had visions too. Because of this post, I will look into her visions closer than before.

[Teal'c]

This whole backstory still smacks of missing details, in my mind.

Even a hothead should be too cautious to ride up to the keep and yell to Rhaegar to come out and die. Especially since everyone knew that Aerys was mad and violent. I'm wondering how much of the Brandon's behavior has been embellished through Westerosi urban legend.

It's just never rung true to me somehow. I can believe that Lord Rickon rode to KL to try and extricate Brandon, but the part before that has never smelled quite true or complete to me. Anyone else think so?

[Burning down the House]

I'm more puzzled as to why nobody even tries to guess at or theorize as to why Rhaegar took Lyanna in the first place.

It was because she was hot and he wanted to bang her.

[Raksha the Demon]

This whole backstory still smacks of missing details, in my mind.

Even a hothead should be too cautious to ride up to the keep and yell to Rhaegar to come out and die. Especially since everyone knew that Aerys was mad and violent. I'm wondering how much of the Brandon's behavior has been embellished through Westerosi urban legend.

It's just never rung true to me somehow. I can believe that Lord Rickon rode to KL to try and extricate Brandon, but the part before that has never smelled quite true or complete to me. Anyone else think so?

Didn't both Ned and Lady Barbrey (in ADWD) reflect on Brandon's 'wolf blood' rashness? Ned was supposedly the opposite, more cautious, less impulsive. I think Brandon was what, 17 or 18 when he rode to King's Landing; calling out the crown prince of Westeros to "Come out and die" strikes me as something an arrogant, macho young hot-head like Brandon might do.

Don't forget, Aerys was insane. He had been tortured and imprisoned in Duskendale; and since then had grown more and more paranoid, with the latent craziness coming out too. Frankly, it was irresponsible of both Rhaegar, as the heir to the Seven Kingdoms, and the lords paramount, to leave him in charge of anything; there should have been a coup long before Rhaegar decided to abscond with Lord Stark's daughter; and Aerys locked up in a comfy room with bars on the windows and some muscular servants with Rhaegar becoming de facto king. I figure that Aerys heard that young Stark was outside the keep demanding the death of Aerys' son, and he freaked and chucked the kid into the nearest dungeon. Aerys probably thought there was a major Stark conspiracy against him; the daughter bewitching his son and luring him away, the heir threatening to kill Aerys' son; so he decided to summon Lord Rickard to his death, fearing that Rickard would kill him if he didn't. Not fair or right, but Aerys was plainly a few dragon eggs short of an omelet.

[Rheagar Prime]

I think Aerys was having prophetic dreams about the Starks, and in trying to forestall those dreams, ended up making them come true.

In the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, for example, we're told that "the king himself urged men to challenge [the Knight of the Laughing Tree], declaring that the face behind that helm was no friend of his." Why would Aerys have feared a mystery knight? What was the impetus here? Well, we know the Targs have a history of self-fulfilling prophetic dreams (see, e.g., Egg's older brother Prince Dareon). Aerys might easily have dreamed of the KOTLT (who was probably Lyanna Stark) bringing down destruction on him. If he dreamed about Brandon and Rickard doing the same, it would clarify a number of things: why he was so keen on brutally murdering them (even though he suspected Rhaegar, who Brandon was threatening, was plotting against Aerys himself), why he sent for the head of Ned (but not Benjen, who we know ended up taking no part in the Rebellion). It would also clarify why he wanted Robert's head, when Robert hadn't done anything yet. If Aerys was having dreams about the upcoming Rebellion, but was just too foolish to realize that his own actions were causing his prophetic dreams to come true, then I think his actions start making a lot more sense.

sir i must commend you for this theory as it is so possible i mean other than varys voice he was also know to hear voices in his head it could also be those dreams for real. Still i go for the paranoia for his madness for killing them the guy was just crazy. Martin needs to do the prequel to this we must know about rhaegar and lyanna and why the mad kind did these things