Disturbing elements of the GoT fandom

[Lady Blackfish]

Yeah, I get the arguments that American TV is too Puritanical and whatever, but please, let's not pretend that "Naked chicks are hawwtttt" is anything progressive or groundbreaking. Give me a break :bs:

[strongboar]

This thread going after 5 pages? OP seemed like a classic obvious troll to me :huh:

[gogorath]

1) Relative to my personal expectations, both GoT and ASOIF seem to have a ton of female fans.

2) There's actually LESS violence in the TV Show than in the books. The only real added violence was the Drogo/Mogo scene. Subtract the Battle of the Green Fork and there's less violence than expected. no? Plus, there's a ton less violence than they could have shown (such as the Hound running down Micah).

3) There is a bunch of gratuitous nudity, for sure, but there's a lot of beefcake as well for the ladies. I realize men tend to like looking at woman parts more than vice versa, but I've seen plenty of women making sexist comments about many of the male actors. Making comments about Momoa or Harrington or Ian Glenn aren't usually along the veins of "I find Khal Drogo to be a sensitive man I'd like to have long conversations with."

4) Is there really emotional depth lacking from the series? Perhaps, but 99% of that is lack of a POV setting. What in depth relationship have we been missing? There's even been added depth, as we've seen more to Cersei, Robert and Viserys to name a few. The Drogo/Dany relationship was very similarly done, for example.

[Jon Snow's Body]

Our problem is that simple sex really isn't simple at all. There is a heck of a lot of subtext both in our real lives and in the HBO show. I think the HBO adaptors are doing a teriffic job of compressing layers of meaning into every little bit of bare skin:

The Pycelle/Ros scene showed us most excellently that Pycelle plays a deep game with his mask of decrepit old fogey. Loved how he preened in the mirror and then hunched over before he left his chambers. It also shows that the smart whore from upcountry is totally outclassed in King's Landing. Littlefinger and the two whores scene told us that the master of manipulation had more going on than joining in a fun romp. Once again, Ros was outclassed. Follow this with the Cersei/Lancel scene -- begins to reveal Cersei's pathetic reliance on her physical attractiveness to manipulate people like the Kettleblacks. Lancel zinged her by asking what war was like "when she was young".

I think this is a great point that somehow was immediately overlooked. The scene existed to give the viewer a first hand glimpse at the underhanded maneuverings of Lord Petyr. It demonstrates Littlefinger's use of pleasure not just as a source of income, but as a means of gathering intelligence. When we see Littlefinger and Varys have their spy off, we see two men who live and die by secrets. Might it be plausible that a good portion of Littlefinger's information come from his brothels? How many secrets are let slip in his houses of pleasure, or finagled by determined whores such as Ros in a more intimate setting? It seems to me that Ros was feeling out Pycelle's support of Joffrey, and what reason would she have for doing this if not on Littlefinger's orders. Pycelle, for his part, plays a deep game as well. By all appearances he takes the bait, playing out his mummers farce as a doddering, senile old man. Hardly a threat, nor a viable source of information. Or so it would seem.

Now, scenes like Ros/Pycelle or the brothel "sexposition" present a conundrum for those whose bloodflow was redirected elsewhere or others who were too busy having their puritanical feathers ruffled. Distractions abound in this series, as does deception. The scene must be taken as a whole. By attempting to reduce it to simple T&A, a viewer misses the subtle fleshing out of Littlefinger's character. Hopefully it was intended. As we can see in this thread, only one poster attempted to delve more deeply into the scenes. The rest is a superfluous argument (Too Many Breasts! Too Few Breasts! Just Enough!) Yes, HBO may be playing up the nudity a bit, but certain criticism seems to ignore the setting and its adherence the misogyny, violence, brutality that defined the time period. I don't see how one can contrast this show to a contemporary series like True Blood. Yes, they both have T&A. But comparing Medieval Europe to 21st Century Louisiana is disingenuous at best. Modern mores have no place in a quasi-medieval world, no more than the chauvinistic, male dominated world of Westeros would be acceptable today.

A better article appeared in Salon in response to the Breasts vs. Tits pearl clutching, and I appreciated that the author didn't require smelling salts when viewing the human form. Titled "In Defense of HBO's "Unnecessary Nudity," it presents a more evenhanded take on the debate. At least in my opinion.

[Cadiva]

Personally I also think it depends (in a very simplified manner and not with 100% coverage) whether you're American or not. There seems, from an outsider's perspective, to be a real problem with reactions to sex and how sex and nudity is portrayed and used in the American film/TV etc culture whereas random violence provokes no similar reaction.

I hadn't read the first book before watching the TV series, I'm a 41-year-old woman with a history of avid fantasy reading but, for some reason, had never got round to ASoIaF before seeing Sean Bean advertising Game of Thrones. I have now read Book One and am halfway through ACoK and have bought the rest to read while waiting for the rest of the TV series. I've also read up a lot on the characters as I'm not one to be bothered by "spoilers" so much.

I'm also English, where sex isn't a big deal but we don't really like violence quite so much and, for me, I found the violence to be more disturbing in a random way than the sex/nudity was in any of the scenes. I didn't find the violence excessive and I appreciated just how matter of fact it was shown, this is a brutal world etc.

I saw something somewhere which explained the use of the whores during Littlefinger's soliloquy as a means to show just how desensitised he is to what goes on in his brothels and how he is able to use women - in this instance Ros - as a tool. It also gives the insight that, just as he's telling these whores how to perform, so he's revealing how he's pulling the strings of Eddard Stark and lets slip the mask he's shown to let the viewer see how much he hates the Stark brothers. It's supposed to be a disturbing scene, the real problem with it was that they were too loud so the effect of his monologue was somewhat lost. Can't find the damn review now though.

A better article appeared in Salon in response to the Breasts vs. Tits pearl clutching, and I appreciated that the author didn't require smelling salts when viewing the human form. Titled "In Defense of HBO's "Unnecessary Nudity," it presents a more evenhanded take on the debate. At least in my opinion.

ETA: Thank you, that's the one I was thinking of.

I don't think it's any coincidence that Ros is the one in Maester Pycelle's room where we are given an insight which shows he isn't the doddering fool he displays to the small council and the world of King's Landing at large. If there's no Ros characte, how are we supposed to find out he's disguising that and that he may not be the "kindly old concerned man" that approaches Ned with how hard he tried to save Jon Arynn? It's a scene put there for one purpose alone, to give a view into the deception of Pycelle.

She also provides the insight for Theon's character - how little he is regarded, his inflated opinion of himself and his ambition and how he doesn't really have any kind of affection for the Starks despite living there 10 years and also how little she thinks of him, which is pretty harsh considering she's a whore, it's a great set up for Theon's later character development imho.

[Lady Blackfish]

That Salon article annoyed me to no end. "And despite the advances of women and minorities, the TV world is mostly run by older white guys. And hey, GRR Martin is himself an old white guy."

So, you know, everyone who is not a white guy. Suck it up and deal. Le eyeroll. All in all a more complacent critique of this aspect of the show than need be.

There is the question of nudity and sex, and then there is the question of who exactly is nude and having sex, and it would be wise not to confuse the two critiques.

[Salome the Persian Witch]

3) There is a bunch of gratuitous nudity, for sure, but there's a lot of beefcake as well for the ladies. I realize men tend to like looking at woman parts more than vice versa, but I've seen plenty of women making sexist comments about many of the male actors. Making comments about Momoa or Harrington or Ian Glenn aren't usually along the veins of "I find Khal Drogo to be a sensitive man I'd like to have long conversations with."

Of all the things to respond...

1) Who? To what "beefcake" are you referring that is at all equal to buck naked Roz wiping her vagina? Or Roz riding a cart and showing us her vagina? Or buck naked Roz doing anything, really. (Perfectly clean, lily white, and well lit to boot).

Also, this whole women don't like looking at manly parts is rather frustrating -what perpetuates this silliness is that the female form is consistently set up to be objectified in media, but not the male form (as evinced by even this tv show).

There is the question of nudity and sex, and then there is the question of who exactly is nude and having sex, and it would be wise not to confuse the two critiques.

:agree: And also, the nature of the differences between the depiction of that nudity and sex (and the perceived tastes of the "average viewer"). You can not tell me the brief glimpse of Hodor's penis comes anywhere close to being equivalent to all the full frontal female nudity and their "screams" of sexual delight. <_<

[samiam3]

I don't think the sex and nudity on the show is very good. That is my problem. It has been stuck in apparently to woo viewers bored by the initial episodes and very badly done. Therefore, it is upsetting puritans and those who want T+A in their shows alike.

I think of the littlefinger/Ros scene as one of the worst scenes in TV history. Not in the book, not needed and truly painful to watch.

As far as the character Ros, I think she is a great addition. Too many nameless harlots may work in a 1000 page novel but no so well in a TV show. She may not be from the book but her character is true to the book in that there are many persons in Westeros who have travelled far and wide and interacted with major figures past and present.

[samiam3]

Of all the things to respond...

1) Who? To what "beefcake" are you referring that is at all equal to buck naked Roz wiping her vagina? Or Roz riding a cart and showing us her vagina? Or buck naked Roz doing anything, really. (Perfectly clean, lily white, and well lit to boot).

Also, this whole women don't like looking at manly parts is rather frustrating -what perpetuates this silliness is that the female form is consistently set up to be objectified in media, but not the male form (as evinced by even this tv show).

:agree: And also, the nature of the differences between the depiction of that nudity and sex (and the perceived tastes of the "average viewer"). You can not tell me the brief glimpse of Hodor's penis comes anywhere close to being equivalent to all the full frontal female nudity and their "screams" of sexual delight. <_<

Have to nit pick her but you don't actually see Ros vagina. She does open up her dress and maybe if you have a HD TV and can zoom in maybe you can see something. There is no question you can see all of Hodor's and Theon's manhood in their frontal nudity scenes. I am pretty sure in scenes where ROS is having sex with Theon ... Theon is grunting and participating fully as well.

I just don't understand how people can get so upset about sex and Lady being killed in a show where people are beheaded, raped and children are butchered. If you have read the books... how can the nudity on the show be upsetting.

[Jon Snow's Body]

Have to nit pick her but you don't actually see Ros vagina. She does open up her dress and maybe if you have a HD TV and can zoom in maybe you can see something. There is no question you can see all of Hodor's and Theon's manhood in their frontal nudity scenes. I am pretty sure in scenes where ROS is having sex with Theon ... Theon is grunting and participating fully as well.

I just don't understand how people can get so upset about sex and Lady being killed in a show where people are beheaded, raped and children are butchered. If you have read the books... how can the nudity on the show be upsetting.

Exactly. And if the outrage is this bad now, imagine what they would be saying if the characters hadn't been aged to make the show more palatable. Torches and pitchforks come to mind...

[Swordswench]

I don't think it's any surprise that there will be a "titties and beer!" element to the show's fandom, but big deal. Readers aren't likely to go that route, and as far as postings here go, I've seen very little -- if any -- of that mentality. People moved to go to the trouble to spend hour upon hour writing in depth for free about a book series really aren't the sort to be clamoring for needless nudity or more sexposition. I can totally see how male fans are taking the OP as an insult.

And as for pervdom in the world of internet-based fan communities, there are plenty of women out there writing terrible slashfic on everything from Harry Potter to Spock and Kirk, so I wouldn't go picking on the men for being prurient sexualizers of beloved characters or series.

As for the show-runners, they do have to somehow shoehorn in a lot of backstory in order for things to make sense to the non-reading audience, but they seem to be more sensitive to the established fans opinions than they need to be in order to appease the demands of HBO. I agree with posters here that say it's not the fact that there's sexual nudity itself as much as the ham-fisted way it's presented, but I think that we'll see improvement in that area as the series continues. For one thing, as the stories progress, there's more opportunity for nude scenes that are part of the ASoIAF cannon and involve the main characters.