R+L may not equal J?

[chris999]

I am trying to keep an open mind here, because I think that it is likely that GRRM has been screwing with our heads, and that Lyanna may have had a baby that was not Jon Snow, and that Snow may actually just indeed be a bastard whelped on Wyllia.

Is it possible that "The Promise" was to send this other baby away to safety? I am thinking "Aegon" here. Many have speculated that "Septa Lemore" is actually Ashara Dayne, and I think that the story of her suicide may just be a cover so that she could leave and help train the boy. Didn't she dissapear right about the time of these events?

This may seem crackpotish, but if it is so obvious that the child born that day is Jon Snow, then why hasnt it been confirmed in the books after all of this time?(If there even was a child born that day) One last curve-ball up GRRM's sleeve?

Also, if this is true, then, hold your breath....

Jon Snow could actually really be dead!

Of course he would still live on as Ghost... I think that is why the wolf was named "Ghost" to begin with, just excellent forshadowing.

Blasphemy, I know. What do you guys think?

[Lord Ben]

If you assume his motivations is to screw with our heads maybe, but I don't think that's what drives him to write this storyline. Plus 90% of the readers who pick the books up and read them don't get the references unless they read stuff on the internet about it. Him being Lyanna's kid is pretty much the one theory nobody in the stories has, everyone just assumes he's Ned's.

[IronSuitor]

If you assume his motivations is to screw with our heads maybe, but I don't think that's what drives him to write this storyline. Plus 90% of the readers who pick the books up and read them don't get the references unless they read stuff on the internet about it. Him being Lyanna's kid is pretty much the one theory nobody in the stories has, everyone just assumes he's Ned's.

The fantasy hero getting killed in the first book wasn't screwing with our heads?

[chris999]

It just seems to me that a lot of fantasy stories seem to have that "surprize king" that comes to save the day at the end, and I think it would be excellent writing if he led us to believe that Snow is this surprize king, but that we would be wrong. It gives him a way to invoke more emotion from the storytelling.

And I dont think that R+L=J is some kind of creation on a message board, because I figured that out on my first read. I dont know why everyone thinks that. It was pretty obvious to some of us.

[THE INDIGO]

Aegon is Illyrio's son. Just read the second Tyrion Chapter. Illyrio talks about his ex-wife (who had puple eyes and silver gold hair). He also states that contracts sign in ink can be broken for those signed in blood. ect. you need to re-read.

[chris999]

The fantasy hero getting killed in the first book wasn't screwing with our heads?

And it wouldnt be the first time that GRRM has thrown a curve-ball (unexpected surprize) at us.

GRRM is the master at surprizes. I bet not a damn one of us thought that Robb was going to die at that wedding, unless we read spoilers.

[THE INDIGO]

*** Tyrion's second chapter in ADwD.

[chris999]

Aegon is Illyrio's son. Just read the second Tyrion Chapter. Illyrio talks about his ex-wife (who had puple eyes and silver gold hair). He also states that contracts sign in ink can be broken for those signed in blood. ect. you need to re-read.

I am not trying to make this true, but I just think that that info could have been dropped on us to help disguise what he is really doing.

Either way, until GRRM gives us Howland Reed, or Bran connects to the wierwoodweb, we are not going to know what happened that day.

I think that GRRM is a good enough writer to be able to pull the wool over our eyes.

[Lord Ben]

The fantasy hero getting killed in the first book wasn't screwing with our heads?

He screwed with our heads in the process of telling a story about a hero who wouldn't compromise his honor in a dirty world and died and had his family cast out and scattered because of it. That's quite a bit different than doing something to screw with our heads. I didn't think of him being Ned's nephew until I saw it on the internet and then everything made a ton more sense. Both my RL friends who read it didn't either until I mentioned it to them. If he was trying to have R+L=J be the big fakeout he'd have POV characters hear or believe rumors of it. Wylla, Ashara, some milk maid, etc are the red herrings.

And it wouldnt be the first time that GRRM has thrown a curve-ball (unexpected surprize) at us.

GRRM is the master at surprizes. I bet not a damn one of us thought that Robb was going to die at that wedding, unless we read spoilers.

See, now that is wrong. With Ned GRRM showed that actions have consequences. As soon as he betrayed the Freys and fell in love I knew he'd be betrayed in turn and when the Wedding was arranged I saw it coming as soon as Robb was promised to attend.

[chris999]

Well, I think it would be awesom, because that would mean that GRRM is building all of this emotion and attachment that we have for Jon Snow, just to crush our spirits in the end when he is killed, only to find out that we were wrong to begin with.

Then, we have "Aegon" who most of us feel no attachment to, who we are being led to believe that he is a "mummer's dragon", who could turn out to be the savior we have been looking for, right under our noses the whole time.

Now THAT is the kind of writing that GRRM is capable of. That is the way to evoke emotion in your readers.

[Bride of Winter]

is R+L=J common knowledge enough so that it would actually be a meaningful twist if it turned out he wasn't Lyanna's son, though? I know most of us got it the first time around, but you'd think if GRRM was leading us on this trail only to throw us a curveball, he would imply R+L=J a little more heavily. Especially nearing the end of the series. It would all seem a bit rushed imo.

anyway, I don't really care either way if he's a bastard or Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, I just really don't want a deus ex machina to come of it. If he becomes the secret targaryen king that rides a dragon and saves the world and takes his place on the iron throne next to dany I would vomit.

I don't see how his parentage has to do with whether or not he comes back to life though.

[Dragonfish]

Is it possible that "The Promise" was to send this other baby away to safety? I am thinking "Aegon" here.

This doesn't explain why Ned believes he has paid a price to keep his lies to Lyanna, nor does it explain why he's been "living lies" for fourteen years.

Furthermore, the symbolism of the blue rose vision from the HotU strongly hints at a child of Rhaegar and Lyanna being on the Wall.

Therefore, R+L=J.

QED

[chris999]

All I am saying is that I think it would be a fantastic twist, and I think I am going to hold on to this theory for a (long) while until we know for sure.

We all thought that GRRM was a master at his craft for building this relationship between the readers and Robb, then crushing it in an instant.

If he could pull this off, it would be even bigger than that.

Imagine how we all would feel if Jon really is dead...for good. It would be the Red Wedding times 10 as far as emotional response from your readers.

Then, we would also think that he was a master for putting Aegon right under our noses, without us even realizing that he was the chosen one this whole time, and that the "mummer's dragon" was meant to fool us all.

It sure beats the boring old "melissandre will revive Jon, and he will be TPTWP" Why even read the book, if we already know what is going to happen?

Did we expect GRRM to kill Ned?

Did we expect GRRM to kill Robb?

did we expect GRRM to kill Jon?

And when he killed Jon, are we expecting him to revive him, because the "story cant go on without him"?

GRRM has been messing with our emotions since the first book, and I dont expect him to stop now.

[chris999]

I know most of us got it the first time around, but you'd think if GRRM was leading us on this trail only to throw us a curveball, he would imply R+L=J a little more heavily. Especially nearing the end of the series. It would all seem a bit rushed imo.

That is the thing though, If he piles the 'facts' on too heavy, we wont believe them.

Take the PTWP prophesy. The prophesy basically screams at us that Dany is Azor Ahai, but that is the reason that we dont believe it, because it is not suppossed to be obvious.

He has been subtle with the prophesy concerning Jon, just subtle enough to get us to bite...

[EgoistMusketeer]

Honestly I know GRRM is known for avoiding cliche and twisting us all but if Jon is anyone other than Rhaegar and Lyanna's it'll be stupid.

I mean at this point the only reason it wouldn't be is if Martin decides that too many people guessed it so he changed it.

[Cdubreezy]

Ok. So I understand your curve ball theory regarding Jon. But the Aegon becoming the hero right under our noses would NOT be good writing in my opinion because he hasn't been under our noses. He's barely even been in one book. That's lazy writing just like the overuse of cliches is. Just because something isn't expected doesn't mean it's good.

[chris999]

Honestly I know GRRM is known for avoiding cliche and twisting us all but if Jon is anyone other than Rhaegar and Lyanna's it'll be stupid.

I mean at this point the only reason it wouldn't be is if Martin decides that too many people guessed it so he changed it.

Why would it be stupid? We were told in book one that Jon's parents are Ned Stark, and Wyllia.

That is the irony that i am trying to expose here, is that GRRM has already told us what happened, but we are the ones that choose not to believe it, because of the little hints that he drops.

It is all part of his plan.

[IronSuitor]

He screwed with our heads in the process of telling a story about a hero who wouldn't compromise his honor in a dirty world and died and had his family cast out and scattered because of it. That's quite a bit different than doing something to screw with our heads. I didn't think of him being Ned's nephew until I saw it on the internet and then everything made a ton more sense. Both my RL friends who read it didn't either until I mentioned it to them. If he was trying to have R+L=J be the big fakeout he'd have POV characters hear or believe rumors of it. Wylla, Ashara, some milk maid, etc are the red herrings.

That's exactly my point. Martin has done nothing to suggest R+L=J. It's not screwing with our heads, it's just playing with expectations that the hero of a fantasy story has to have some mystery behind his parentage that makes him destined for something great.

That's not saying I don't think R+L is the most likely or even best story-line. The producers of the show have said that they guessed correctly when asked who Jon Snow's parents are, and I can't imagine they guessed anything but R+L. That being said, I would be very intrigued if Jon just died or his parentage was left open-ended. Among my favorite things about ASOIAF is that I can't predict the storylines, even when they're staring me straight in the face.

[chris999]

Ok. So I understand your curve ball theory regarding Jon. But the Aegon becoming the hero right under our noses would NOT be good writing in my opinion because he hasn't been under our noses. He's barely even been in one book. That's lazy writing just like the overuse of cliches is. Just because something isn't expected doesn't mean it's good.

I'm just saying that he has trained us not to believe that Aegon is "for real"(for lack of a better term). That is the irony. He is TPTWP, and has been the whole time.

[Dragonfish]

All I am saying is that I think it would be a fantastic twist

What twist? A twist is where you explicitly lead your audience to believe one thing, then reveal that what they thought was actually completely wrong. George has led us to believe that Jon is Ned's son. That is what he has explicitly been leading us to believe. If he reveals that Jon is actually Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, then that would be a twist.

What you are talking about, however, doesn't really count as a twist. R+L=J, while known to most everyone on these boards, is probably unknown to most readers. It exists only on the level of subtext. For him to suddenly shift gears and reveal that, say, Aegon is actually Lyanna and Rhaegar's son wouldn't be very "shocking", because most readers wouldn't even realize what it was that he was twisting away from. So I'm sorry to say, but I don't see your proposition as a "fantastic twist."