Lana Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Why should people believe that she is a Targ and not a Velaryon or Blackfyre?Because Viserys was with his sister from birth to present day? Strange question; ask King Bob why he was so threatened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
total1402 Posted August 20, 2012 Author Share Posted August 20, 2012 So she should go back to Westeros because people are telling her how things are bad, back at home? Talk about entitlement and messiah complex. The point is that if she wanted to go to Westeros, she should have gone after she had the Unsullied or just after Qarth. Conquering Meereen and learning how to rule there was a bad idea. She could learn in Westeros, surrounded by devoted and competent advisers. One can never become the perfect leader so I think, learning to rule a realm in Meereen wasn't bright. And it ended catastrophously since we have an epidemia, a besieged city and a missing leader right now. She'll come back but what she'll do then? Leave for Westeros, given Meeren's bad state? What will happen to those that call her Mhysa? Is she to let them there, or bring them to Westeros? Those guys do not even speak english so I think it will create more demographic tension/civil war than peace and prosperity. Westeros has been ravaged by the War of the 5 Kings and staples must be rare. I don't see the poor northerner or riverlander sharing bread with the Ghiscari/Dothraki that doesn't even speak his tongue. I think she'll stay there for a while, perhaps forever. She just cannot pack her bag and go15000 Unsullied. Half of them killed or driven insane by the warpstorm (a fething warpstorm!). Gets to Free Cities. Nobodies going to take her seriously, she still needs a fleet and can't just take a few hundred ships without a major war. Braavos the naval power of the region, hate dragons and would try to attack her given any chance. Even if she did. She still has the massive problem that everybody hates the Targs. Just because they hated Cersei doesn't mean they'll rush on to her. Tyrell has a lot to gain as do the Boltons + Freys. Martell would support but Martell isn't enough. The Stormlands won't rush to a Targ due to what they did. Nor would the Starks and nor would the Vale. All of those houses hate Targs; they are under bloodfued and expect no mercy. On the face of it Danys chances of taking Westeros with 15,000 Unsullied were not good and such a plan would never have worked. People would never have rallied under her like they will Aegon due to the established reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Because Viserys was with his sister from birth to present day? Strange question; ask King Bob why he was so threatened. So? Viserys is dead... If he fealted so threatened she would be dead years ago... JonCon and Varys know that YG is Aegon, HR knows Jon's parents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Booknerd2 Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 That is my big debate with myself every time I read her povs, was there ever a best time in the series when she should have just gone to Westeros and just did it? I don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordBloodraven Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 15000 Unsullied. Half of them killed or driven insane by the warpstorm. Gets to Free Cities. Nobodies going to take her seriously, she still needs a fleet and can't just take a few hundred ships without a major war. Braavos the naval power of the region, hate dragons and would try to attack her given any chance. Even if she did. She still has the massive problem that everybody hates the Targs. Just because they hated Cersei doesn't mean they'll rush on to her. Tyrell has a lot to gain as do the Boltons + Freys. Martell would support but Martell isn't enough. The Stormlands won't rush to a Targ due to what they did. Nor would the Starks and nor would the Vale. All of those houses hate Targs; they are under bloodfued and expect no mercy. On the face of it Danys chances of taking Westeros with 15,000 Unsullied were not good and such a plan would never have worked. People would never have rallied under her like they will Aegon due to the established reasons.See, this is the problem. She doesn't have any links with contemporary Westeros. She has no active partisans there, nothing but prospective bandwagoners. She has no court in exile, doesn't have an opinion on Westerosi affairs yet she hopes to go there and see the lords bend the knees to them. They'll bend because she has dragons and will break when she has none or they think someone else might be more palatable to them. She's not creating this devotion that the likes of Rhaegar and Robert had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
total1402 Posted August 20, 2012 Author Share Posted August 20, 2012 So? Viserys is dead... If he fealted so threatened she would be dead years ago... JonCon and Varys know that YG is Aegon, HR knows Jon's parents.At the start of FoC a bunch of randoms are able to muse about hearing a beautiful Queen and one of them thinks they remember the name; eventually somebody mutters it out. They vaguely know that the Beggar King had a sister. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Baby Dragons,she is insane, lost the throne lost the claim.Why should people believe that she is a Targ and not a Velaryon or Blackfyre?Because she was born on Dragostone, and nearly surrendered to Robert B. by the garrison there but Sir Derry fled with her and Viserys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 At the start of FoC a bunch of randoms are able to muse about hearing a beautiful Queen and one of them thinks they remember the name; eventually somebody mutters it out. They vaguely know that the Beggar King had a sister. Yes but we also know that Rhaegar had a son named Aegon and that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. Is that a proof of parentage?Also why the parentage should matter? She lost the throne she lost the claim. End of the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
total1402 Posted August 20, 2012 Author Share Posted August 20, 2012 See, this is the problem. She doesn't have any links with contemporary Westeros. She has no active partisans there, nothing but prospective bandwagoners. She has no court in exile, doesn't have an opinion on Westerosi affairs yet she hopes to go there and see the lords bend the knees to them. They'll bend because she has dragons and will break when she has none or they think someone else might be more palatable to them. She's not creating this devotion that the likes of Rhaegar and Robert had.But thats the thing. Its a situation entirely out of Danys control. Its not her fault that Darry died and that theres been no prior contact with Westeros or that Varys poached all the pro-Targs. She can't create the devotion that Rob n Rhaegar could when shes put on the other side of the world; thats not a character flaw thats just going out of your way to spite a character into having to use dragons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
total1402 Posted August 20, 2012 Author Share Posted August 20, 2012 Yes but we also know that Rhaegar had a son named Aegon and that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. Is that a proof of parentage?Also why the parentage should matter? She lost the throne she lost the claim. End of the story.Everyone thought Aegon had his face smashed against a wall as a baby.Its a difficult story to believe after so many years and since he was never known by anybody. People will buy it of course; I don't doubt that. But I think when Pycelle said nobody would doubt Danys legitimacy he meant it. The point is that people believe Dany is who she is. Its just that the distance and misinformation meant virtually nobody in Westeros was aware of this until the end of ADWD. Maybe all Westeros will learn by the end of WoW but as I said earlier they'll have other things on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Everyone thought Aegon had his face smashed against a wall as a baby.Its a difficult story to believe after so many years and since he was never known by anybody. My point is that since all three of them lived hidden no one will accept their parentage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lana Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Yes but we also know that Rhaegar had a son named Aegon and that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. Is that a proof of parentage?Also why the parentage should matter? She lost the throne she lost the claim. End of the story.Aegon being alive and R + L = J are not common knowledge. Therefore, it will be more difficult to prove their legitimacy. Daenerys being a trueborn Targaryen is common knowledge. I suppose you could argue that there is no proof this is the real Dany, but there is little need because Robert, Varys, Illyrio, Jorah, Ser Barristan, Viserys, Quentyn and Co., Euron, Victarion, Marwyn, etc. all at one point or another acknowledged her existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
total1402 Posted August 20, 2012 Author Share Posted August 20, 2012 My point is that since all three of them lived hidden no one will accept their parentage.Viseyrs n Dany weren't hidden everybody knew they got away and were still out there. Hence he was mocked as the "Beggar King" for so long. Nobody said they were dead so the assumption for the common folk would be still alive. Those in the know like Rob, Doran and co would have known what was happening with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Viseyrs n Dany weren't hidden everybody knew they got away and were still out there. Hence he was mocked as the "Beggar King" for so long. Nobody said they were dead so the assumption for the common folk would be still alive. Those in the know like Rob, Doran and co would have known what was happening with them.Robert did know-remember that he wanted to send an assassin after Dany when she fell pregnant with Drogo's child? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Aegon being alive and R + L = J are not common knowledge. Therefore, it will be more difficult to prove their legitimacy. Daenerys being a trueborn Targaryen is common knowledge. I suppose you could argue that there is no proof this is the real Dany, but there is little need because Robert, Varys, Illyrio, Jorah, Ser Barristan, Viserys, Quentyn and Co., Euron, Victarion, Marwyn, etc. all at one point or another acknowledged her existence. Anyway, even if this is true, why should the lords of the Reals accept her as their queen? Her family was deposed she lost any claim to the throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Booknerd2 Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Aegon is going to have the problem proving something.Viserys was 7 or 8 when he fled with his pregnant mother and his moving around with Dany over the years can be traced and there are witnesses. And Varys through Jorah were tailing them, so no dispute there.Especially if Aegon and Danaerys are coming out of the woodwork into Westeros at around the same time. Some detractors are going to claim "Oh, look, everyone is a Targaryen now." If they don't work together they will have more issues, but then again, I don't see them working together either, nor that they wouldn't clash, if that makes sense.A damned if you do/don't situation. And it doesn't even matter that I think Aegon is fake, it matters what key people and banners and then the populace in KL thinks of one or both of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lana Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Anyway, even if this is true, why should the lords of the Reals accept her as their queen? Her family was deposed she lost any claim to the throne.I'm not saying the lords will flock to her cause; I'm looking forward to people challenging her claim and seeing how she'll deal with it. But Westerosi are sticklers for bloodlines and birthrights so she'll get some support, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 I'm not saying the lords will flock to her cause; I'm looking forward to people challenging her claim and seeing how she'll deal with it. But Westerosi are sticklers for bloodlines and birthrights so she'll get some support, I think. She is a woman and she is from a deposed family...I can not see this happen. The last time a woman was going to have the throne and she was the legal heir there were a civil war...That is my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nepaliman_7 Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 I think if she does become the queen the Greyjoys will have to help her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenshi Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Anyway, even if this is true, why should the lords of the Reals accept her as their queen? Her family was deposed she lost any claim to the throne.Because the usurper bankrupted the country, and as far as they don't see he was a prick, they probably hated every claimant after him. Joffrey mad, Balon a plunderer, Robb wrecked the north/riverlands, Stannis an ass, Renly a useless twat, Euron batshit crazy, Tommen a farce, Cersei an ugly old tart with the brain capacity of a demented snail, and Aegon's the spider's creature who only brought more war. And all of them were completely useless once the country started turning into zombietown, all of them wasting precious food and manpower while winter came and starved them all.And then our precious queen comes in, with flowers in her hair, with the looks of the Targaryens who weren't so bad after all (okay, he killed a couple of misfit lords but who misses them?), bringing with her the threefold symbol of hundreds of years of prosperity, and sending the undead running for their mummies.At this rate, why bother with swords? Just sail across with bread, once KL is kingless and starving. Probably a better chance that way.(how much of this post is sarcasm, is up to the reader ;) ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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