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OtherGlover

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  1. Yes, I very much agree that they were all suffering from war fatigue. Tyrion throws up his hands and says just pick a King and be done with the whole matter. Interestingly the North and Sansa could be one of those factions. Without having to pay tax to the crown Sansa is in position to use that money to buy votes in the south in exchange for favorable rulers to with which to deal.
  2. Yes of course there was perpetual war. We know from our own ancient and medieval histories that kings and rulers go on campaigns. My point was that other than the Riverlands most of the Seven Kingdoms had been solidified under stable regimes by the time of Aegon's landing. That is why the Starks, Durrandons, Gardeners, and Lannisters all trace their lineage and kingships back millenniums. While the Arryns date back to the Andal invasion and the Martells the Rhyonish migration. The Rape of the Three Sisters happens during the time of the Andal invasion. Which according to the wiki was 6000, 4000, or 2000 years before Aegon. Even if we go with 2000 consider that is roughly the same amount of time that has passed since Julius Caesar became dictator of Rome. And yet the Starks still hold the North while the Arryns still hold the Vale. The Sisters may have been conquered back and forth, but the Starks were never at risk of loosing the North nor were they likely to conquer the Vale. In fact it says the Starks merely lost interest in the Sisters and abandoned the campaign. Of course there are plenty of other examples of wars, skirmishes, and bloodfeuds. Yet, for the most part the primary houses remain the same along with regional religions and customs (following the adoption of The Seven across the south). The Boltons and Yronwoods may rise up against their kings but the rebellions have always been put down. Consider how many different dynasties have ruled England since 1066 AD. The scale of war, at least to me, seems to have intensified and broadened with the arrival of the Targs and their dragons which disrupted the natural order. Aegons conquest, Faith militant uprising, Dance of Dragons, Blackfyre rebellions (notably the first), Roberts Rebellion, War of the Five Kings, culminating with Dany and the burning of Kings Landing , these were not mere border wars. These were wars that consumed the realm. The only comparison since the Andal invasion was the conquering of the Riverlands by Hoares. Further, look at what the Valyrians were doing during the millenniums leading up to the Doom. Five wars with Ghiscar, the greatest empire of its time, culminating with the complete destruction by dragon flame of Old Ghis, the capital. Valyria attacked the Andals forcing the bloody invasion of Westeros by The Seven worshipers. Also, the Rhyonish wars which culminate in 250,000 dead Rhyonar and their own migration to Westeros by the survivors. Three hundred years after Aegon's conquest and Northmen still look at Westermen with crossed glances. Dornishmen still mistrust Reachmen. Three hundred years and no real sense of national unity. The Greatjon's famous speech illustrates this. Tribalism, local religious and popular customs still rule the individual Seven Kingdoms. Without the Targs there to hold the realm together I think the best option they could have reached in the show would have been to follow Sansa's lead and each Kingdom declare independence. Even if this is the ending GRRM is working towards (which I highly doubt) I just don't see how the current arrangement will lead to any kind of long lasting peace. The Targs broke the natural order and bound the kingdoms together; despite there being no desire nor willingness for this to happen. Then not even 20 years after the last Targ king is overthrown the realm erupted in war with houses from each kingdom maneuvering to seize power from the others. Now the six remaining kingdoms are expected vote a new king in every time an old one dies. It will be the blacks and the greens every 20 or 30 years (and that's if they are lucky). So yes I believe with Dany dead, Jon banished, and Drogon melting the Iron Throne before taking off, that the lords of the Seven Kingdoms should have taken Sansa's lead and gone back to the natural order of things before the great wheel of the Targaryen's had rolled over them.
  3. See I was actually hopeful for that outcome when Drogon melted the Iron Throne. To me it was the most logical conclusion (for the show story line). Its funny Dany talks about breaking the wheel and yet her family was one of the biggest "wheels" in Westeros. The Targs came in crushed all the kingdoms into submission. Two ruling families were wiped out and a third, the Durrandons, were destroyed in the male line. King Durrandon's daughter was forced to marry a Targ bastard and their words and sigil co-opted by this Baratheon. The Targ rule brought with it 300 years of war and submission. Now I'm not saying that everything was perfect for the 1000s of years before Targ rule. However, from what little history we do know, the North was largely stabilized behind Stark rule. The Vale and Dorne lived behind natural barriers. The Reach was rich and flourishing with perhaps the oldest line of kings on the continent. Yes there were border wars (North and Vale over the Sisters, Stormlands and Reach over the Marches) and someone would have to do something about the Hoares eventually, but the realms had integrated new cultures (Andal invasion, Rhoynar migration) and religions (The Seven) and for the most part appears stable at the time of Aegon's landing. Without their Targ overlords and their dragons why shouldn't these Kingdoms revert to their previous state. Especially because Aegon and his descendants did little to harbor any sense of national unity. Borders remained the same, regional cultures and religions unchanged. Northmen were Northmen and Dornishmen were Dornishmen. They weren't Seven Kingdomers or Iron Throners. Ned, who was raised in the Eyrie sees himself as strictly northern and his own children appear to have never made it much further south than White Harbor. The Iron Islanders with their thralls have a form a slavery that is strictly forbidden throughout the rest of the kingdom. So when the show arrived at this election scene I was shocked that nobody thought to bring up that maybe they didn't need an all-powerful supreme overlord. Especially one who had absolutely no claim and who's first act as supreme overlord was to grant his sisters kingdom independence. They suggested democracy (an admirable idea but still several major scientific breakthroughs away from being a serious option), but failed to realize what is sitting right in front of them. What even Drogon saw, that without the Targs there is no need for the Seven Kingdoms or the Iron Throne. The crownlands could have been absorbed into the River and Stormlands. While treatise could have been signed and I actually think an independent Kings Landing with a council made up of nobles from the different realms, maesters, and septons helping to adjudicate disputes between the Kingdoms would be much more plausible then what we got. Hell, it's also surprising that D&D passed on the opportunity to make Bronn King of the Reach not just LP.
  4. Hey all! Have to say the best thing about the show has been lurking this forum. With this final episode I feel the need to join the party. -IDK if anyone here plays the Crusader Kings 2 GoT mod. But Dany at the end basically turned into me whenever I get a dragon in the game. "Well time to conquer absolutely everything. Screw diplomacy and stewardship my martial rating is through the roof time to capitalize." -Greyworm "Jon, where did Dany and Drogon go?" Jon "She went to find the next realm she's going to conquer. Should be back in about a fortnight. I'm going to go hang with my army now." Is literally all he had to say. -Greyworm not killing Jon on sight when he confessed, along with Tyrion and Davos for good measure is completely stupid. - I can see GRRM working things out so Bran is king, but that "election"scene was a farce. Nobody acknowledges that the second Dany died, Jon inherited the throne and became the rightful king. Whether he wants the responsibility or not. -Sure the smallfolk can't vote, but Brienne, Davos and Sam get a vote? Lords Blackwood, Bracken, Royce, Dayne, Hightower, etc... don't have any say in the matter? -If Sansa was going to pull the North out what did she care if her uncle made a play? -So Bran, a Stark, will rule the Six, but doesn't care that his own homeland refuses his rule? The lords of the North don't see the potential benefit to a son of Ned on the throne? What it could mean for northern industry and trade? - Dorne and The Iron Isles don't even know who this crippled kid is but they are fine with bending the knee? Even when his own realm, roughly a 1/3 of westeros' landmass want nothing to do with his kingship? All because he has a good story? -So let me get this straight. The Unsullied demand justice for Dany's death and want Jon executed or they will attack. The new King of the Six, Jon's cousin Bran who has usurped Jon's throne, and other lords including Sansa don't want to Jon to be killed. Jon is still technically the King in the North, but he accepts the judgement of his cousin, who is now a foreign King because the North was granted independence, that he should be banished back to the Nights Watch. The Nights Watch which is located in Jon's now independent northern kingdom. Where the hell were all the northern lords? Why weren't they and the northern army, Jon's northern army, there to greet him when he got off the boat with those 2 black brothers and declare him their king again? I guess the North doesn't remember. -Oh even better Greyworm isn't even sticking around to make sure the punishment is carried out! he's sailing halfway across the world to be killed by butterflies. -Oh it keeps getting better. Jon doesn't even keep his vows. As soon as he arrives at Castle Black he and the wildlings take off beyond the wall so he can live it up free and easy with Ghost and Tormund. -Finally, Bronn Blackwater Lord of the Reach. Bronn was a mildly entertaining side-character. Now I cannot accept any scene he is in because of the absurdity of his ending. The Reach with dozens of houses claiming to descend from the Gardener Kings is now going to accept some up-jumped sellsword as LP? Give me a break. I've had problems with this show ever since D&D ruined Robbs character. In the books he was my favorite none pov character, in the show I actually wanted him to die with how he betrayed the Freys. Following that with each passing season the plotholes got wider and the character stories eroded away faster. This final season and in particular this episode did nothing to rectify past mistakes or tie any loose ends. I'm glad the North is free again as that was the only plot line I was still somewhat invested in. If these were truly the final spoilers from the books all I can do now is sit and hope that George can manage a much more satisfying journey to get here.
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