darmody

8 hours ago, Roux said:

Why is this the first time you see Dany wielding a sword? Every young King and Lord since the dawn of time has trained with a sword. they sit there and say that every man woman and child on bear island and the whole North will train and train but somehow Dany who is sooooooooo important doesn't learn how to defend herself besides hiding behind Jorah and flailing. she wants to change the way people see her as a woman but she won't be strong enough to defend her own body. 

Doesn't learn how to defend herself? She's killed more zombies than anyone living. She has killed scores of men. All because she's a dragonrider, not a swordswoman. 

I don't know about the combat training of queens-to-be in Westeros, but remember Danny was not the supposed heir apparent. Viserys was. He apparently was familiar with the fundamentals of carrying a sword. He had authority over Danny and I can see no reason why he'd have her train with a sword. 

There isn't much need for a queen to know how to fight. And it's not as though hiding behind Jorah is anything to be ashamed of. Unlike Joffrey hiding behind Cersei's skirt. 

If it weren't for the fact that no one else can fly Drogo, she shouldn't even be at Winterfell. There is no reason to put her in harm's way. 

On 4/29/2019 at 9:06 AM, briantw said:

It was kind of refreshing for the good guys' plan to actually work out for once on the first try.  That alone is subverting genre cliches.  

Failing to burn the Big Bad with fire counts as a try. I think technically you have to give Theon credit for a try, too. 

4 hours ago, alienarea said:

When the Night King died, all those he raised died as well.

Jon Snow was raised by Melisandre, and she died. Shouldn't he have died then, too?

Does Jon look like a zombie to you? He was brought back to life. He is not a pile of bones animated by ice magic. 

7 hours ago, greensleeves said:

If TPTWP was about killing the night king then... yeah, guess so!

Honestly, I'm happy for it to be anyone except Jon (because Rhaegar Targaryen was a trash person who doesn't deserve to have any of his actions even slightly justified)

Wasn't getting hammer-chested and his family slaughtered enough?

4 hours ago, Yukle said:

Even Jorah and Tyrion don't really treat her as a person

Given his feelings, had Jorah treated Dany as a person, Khal Drogo would've felt compelled to nude him up and drag him behind a horse. 

After Drogo went catatonic, there was that whole surviving a funeral pyre and hatching dragons thing, which you can understand might compel Jorah to put her on a pedestal. 

As for Tyrion, well, the show forgot to ever have them get to know eachother. It's a weird oversight. He shows up, a Lannister and all. Funny thing, Lannisters slaughtered large chunks of her family. Anyway, she receives him formally and doesn't take his head. Then she disappears back into Dothrakiland. 

She comes back, and is pissed about him screwing up her empire. They don't really have any scenes allowing them to bond as humans--he to her or her to he. Then she names him hand for no reason. Maybe because he's the only person with passing knowledge of Westeros around. 

They don't get any personal scenes together this year, either. It's all business. (Business which Tyrion royally screws up, by the way.) Until the fireside scene, which briefly features Tyrion teasing her on a "k-i-s-s-i-n-g" level and her talking about her taste in men. Then it immediately gets political. 

You can say Tyrion treats her like a queen, yes. But the truth is these characters don't have an actual relationship. It's an illusion. So I can't say that Tyrion doesn't treat Dany as a person, because the two haven't met. Tyrion is still in that box on that ship, I think. Or maybe he's in several pieces, one of which hangs prominently on a cock-merchant's cart. 

4 hours ago, Yukle said:

I took it differently.

She was really touched when he called her, "Dany," and, for the first time in years, somebody looked at her as a person first and not as a queen, warlord, politician, general or anything like that. 

Actually, her first thought upon hearing "Dany" was of her brother Viserys, who also wanted to sex her.

Presumably, she was touched because deep down she sensed Jon is family, too, and Targryens have icky, icky incest in their blood. 

Imagine there was no rebellion, and the Mountain didn't slaughter Rhaegar's annulled family. I like to think we would've heard this line at some point:

Rhaenys Targaryen: "Hi, my name is Rhaenys. This is my brother Aegon, and this is my other brother Aegon."

On 8/20/2017 at 8:23 PM, Christi84 said:

Definitely think Sansa and Arya are just playing it up for Littlefinger

How? Some conversations take place where they can reasonably expect to be overheard. Others happen in private. Do they assume Littlefinger is electronically surveilling them? Even if you say *maybe* someone is always listening even when it's not apparent, Arya, at least, was playacting in silence, when no one could see her. Why?

Why even bother with the charade at all? They can have Littlefinger killed for selling Sansa to the Boltons (in exchange for nothing) or killing their aunt whenever they want. What, are they trying to draw out potential co-conspirators? Is this one giant, elaborate test of his true loyalties? Or is the show just wasting time so they can kill him in the finale. 

7 minutes ago, Anarres said:

Arya to face-change into the meeting with Cersei... but as which character?!

Her fetus. 

10 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Jon leaving destroyed the nightswatch vows in the same way jaime killing aerys destroyed the meaning of the kingsguard vows

No. Jaime broke his vow, pure and simple. Jon fulfilled his.

10 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

- Drown him like theon was drowned, then revive him.

- If Jon left why cant the rest leave? How can jon prove he was dead? Jon leaving destroyed the nightswatch vows in the same way jaime killing aerys destroyed the meaning of the kingsguard vows.

 

I don't clearly remember Theon's ceremony, but I do remember Urine's. The ceremony was symbolic. Urine was temporarily unconscious and drowned in the sense that he stopped breathing. But he was not dead. I'm not sure why you bother bringing this up. 

Jon was dead in every sense. No more respiration, no circulation, no brain activity. The rest can't leave because they weren't dead; only he was. I don't know the Night's Watch's system for determining when one of its members is dead. Probably a Maester declares it. They didn't have one of those around at the time, but they didn't really need one. It was obvious. Many people witnessed him stone cold, including the current Lord Commander. 

If it had been a ruse, some kind of secret plot between Jon and the Red Witch, say, to use a secret potion or something to make it look like he was dead when he actually wasn't--after he was actually stabbed multiple times and thought to be dead by his attackers--clever them. It worked. But we know that's not the case. 

It's possible for human beings to come back from the dead, technically, considering legal death is brain death and brain death doesn't have to be permanent, though usually it is. So the Night's Watch vows aren't airtight. There's a loophole. Jon's death and resurrection weren't like that. That doesn't happen in reality. It was actual magic.

Jon's still technically exploiting a loophole, but he's doing so honestly. He really did die and thus fulfilled his vow. 

3 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

"No evidence in the show"?

• Consider Tywin's dressing-down of Tyrion in the third season: he said he can't prove that Tyrion is not his son, but he would never let him inherit Casterly Rock.
• Later Tywin answered Tyrion's question about when Tywin had ever done anything for the family instead of for himself, Tywin told him on the day that he was born, when he stayed his hand from murder and brought Tyrion up "as his own son" out of his love for Joanna.
• Why was Tyrion the first man of Westeros whom Drogon revealed himself to, back on the Rhoyne? 
• Why did the red priestess in Mereen suddenly turn to peer so intently at little hooded Tyrion when he sarcastically tell told Varys that they'd come to meet the "saviour" the red priestess had just mentioned?
• Why didn't the dragons eat him? How could his talking to them calm them? Was it because he told them of his childhood dream of having a dragon of his own? Why did he want that? Why did they care?

There's plenty of foreshadowing in the show.

Some people can waste twenty years denying the staggering evidence that Jon is Rhaegar's son by Lyanna. Some people can spend just a few seasons.

But it's all the same: it doesn't matter what they want. Martin's interlocking game is something he's planned forever, and the show has been showing all the same clues, rather heavy handedly to be perfectly honest, leading to how the three-headed dragon reborn has been there all along.

You'll see. It isn't worth arguing about, or ranting about, or pretending isn't there.

You'll see.

 

 

 

I wouldn't say there's no evidence. The above poster probably meant to say there's no definitive evidence. There are plenty of clues suggesting Targaryen parentage for Tyrion, which is why it's a favorite fan theory. Not that fans don't come up with the wildest theories on the flimsiest evidence. But not usually with ones this popular. 

Many of your examples can be explained away by the fact that--on the show at least--since poor Ned got dead, Dany, Jon, and Tyrion have been the main characters, and main characters need to be important and have something to do. That's debatable, I realize. Cersei has risen since Season Five to the ranks of main-main character, and in the same period Tyrion has fallen apart as a character. But he's still a show favorite, and they still give him things to do.

Why not have him release the dragons? Our show's got dragons and a dwarf. High time dragons and a dwarf share a scene. 

Those Tywin bits can more easily be interpreted as him not wanting to think of a dwarf as his son. It's embarrassing. (To him.)

You don't need to be a Targaryen to have a rapport with dragons, by the way. You just need dragon blood. 

As for the Jon Targaryen clues, they were way more heavy-handed than the Tyrion as Targaryen clues. 

8 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

- Daenerys burned Randyll and Dickon Tarly making way for Samwell to become head of house tarly. After the Tyrells died out i assume that house Tarly is the rulers of the reach. 

Sam is a sworn brother of the Night's Watch. Unless he comes back from the dead like Jon, he's not inheriting anything. 

Then again, I'm not sure the Night's Watch will exist in a couple of episodes. Or if it even exists now, after Jon sent Tormund to Eastwatch and he bragged that his Wildling bunch were the Night's Watch.

In any case, Sam has a sister that can inherit. 

5 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

1. All three are orphaned third children of their mothers

Tyrion was not an orphan. He still had his father. Even if Tywin wasn't Tyrion's biological father, he was his presumptive and legal father. 

4 hours ago, Arya_Stormborn said:

Designed as a way to kill off major characters (Jorah, the Hound) quickly so that they can devote less screen time to them. This was one of the worst episodes ever. 

They can't kill off the Hound because he has to meet Arya again and he has, has, has to fight his zombie brother. With all the fanservice in this show, no way they skip one of the fanserviest scenes possible. 

Jorah I don't see dying so soon after his cure and reunion with Dany. They can't make the Greyscale subplot that meaningless. 

Same goes for reintroducing Gendry as Robert Baratheon Part II. 

Mr. Undead Flaming Sword and Topknot are fair game. Unfortunately for Tormund-Brienne shippers, he may die, too.

20 hours ago, Kyll.Ing. said:

One issue, though: Tyrion says to the Tarlys: "This war has already destroyed one great house". How is he counting to only end up with one? The Baratheons are goners for sure. And the Tyrells, and the Tullys. You can argue about the Martells. Frey and Bolton were warden houses when their last members died.

You're thinking of it as one big war. Tyrion is referring specifically to the Carol-Dany war, presumably. Houses Frey and Bolton were uninvolved.

Carol technically represents House Baratheon on the throne, I think. Tommen was a Baratheon and she's a Baratheon widow. (It can't continue beyond her, though. Her child with Larry would be a bastard, unless she marries Urine and pretends he's the father. But then a prince or princess would be a Greyjoy. Eww.)

House Tully may have been restored by Dany taking Casterly Rock, if Edmure was being held captive there. If the Lannisters moved him, Riverrun can still be restored to him if he or his son are alive when the Lannisters lose. 

Tyrion was referring to the Tyrells, who are definitely toast. The Martells died in my opinion with Wheelchair Lord and his son from Menudo. Unless they had relatives outside their immediate family, but that's rarely the case on this show. The Indian chick and the Bad Pussy Brigade were pretenders. 

8 hours ago, DebL66 said:

After last night's episode, I am more and more convinced Bran is somehow the Night's King.  Maybe he goes back in time to stop his own advance over and over again and somehow still screws it up each time.  I hate time travel and trying to work out all the inconsistencies in my head, but Bran and the Night King seem very interconnected.  It would explain why he is so emo lately,  and why the Night King can see him...even when he is viewing through his ravens.

They're connected because of the Night King's Secret, Unexplained Powers. But we also saw last season that the Night King touched Bran's arm while he was having a Tree Vision, which was Extra-Specially Meaningful, for some reason. 

6 hours ago, LyrnaSnowBunnyAvenger said:

I'm curious as to how many show only people picked up on how big of a reveal that was.  I'm the only person I know who reads GoT or watches the show.  I loved it because I'm a big fan that Jon is legit, but I honestly don't know if it blunt enough for people not well steeped in R+L

I'm a show-only person. After watching Season One and barely keeping up with the backstory, I educated myself online. Rhaegar kidnapping Ned's sister stuck in my mind as significant.

The show has gone out of its way to repeat Rhaegar's name, especially in connection to Dany. But I don't think it sticks with casual viewers. Especially since we know Dany's other brother so well. It would've been nice if they gave us some flashbacks. 

Tonight's reference was for book readers. Show-only people will get it when Sam has his Ah-Ha! moment later. (Maybe not even then, considering some thought Jon was supposed to be Ned and Lyanna's incest baby last season.)

2 hours ago, Capo Ferro said:

And that's meant to pass for wit?

I don't know. I didn't make it up.

You may have noticed the internet likes to come up with nicknames. 

2 hours ago, StepStark said:

Even if it was "subtle", what would be the point of it? From forever, training process is used in movies and TV to explicitly show improvements. Not subtly, but explicitly.

Bingo. They pulled the same trick with Sandra. They need her to be a power player, and the Smart Stark, complimenting Jon's dumb straight-forwardness. She is supposed to be capable of co-leading the North, and is a contender in Game of Thrones because...she learned from Carol? Even though they never showed her learning.

She was in fact not much privy to the machinations of Cirsie. Nor of Littlefinger, Tyrion, Olestra, Marge, Tywin, or anyone at King's Landing, really. She was locked in a tower when Ramsey ruled Winterfell, yet for no reason the show pretended she was an expert on his personality. I guess Reek filled her in. 

The natural arc would be for her to learn from Littlefinger in the Vale and elsewhere. That didn't happen. We saw that she had improved when she convincingly lied to the Vale lords. I guess she learned how to lie from observing the liars around her, but we weren't actually shown her improving. 

To the show's credit, they didn't have her be a Machiavellian genius last season, when she went behind Jon's back and kept Littlefinger at bay. She came off as a rank amateur, and would've lost her head for treason if she weren't Sandra Stark. Remember the whole "Listen to me, Jon!"

"Okay, what?"

"Um, I dunno. Something."

This season, suddenly she's got an opinion on everything and is an expert on armory and agronomy. 

5 hours ago, Capo Ferro said:

Larry?

Jaime, brother-lover of Carol (/Cheryl/Cersei). 

6 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

Sandor clearly has an important part to play in the whole story or else he wouldn't have been brought back but it totally escapes me what this may be...

The Hound must put down his Zombie Brother, obviously. But that's next season. The audience needs him to have a scene with Arya, and I assume that will happen this season, which is the Season of Reunions. But you wouldn't bring him back just for that. 

The Brotherhood Without Banners will fight the White Walkers alongside the Northmen and Wildlings. I suppose they'll be the Lord of Light's representatives in the war, at least until Mel returns to Westeros. Probably we'll see the Flaming Sword again, and the Hound will have further "I'm scared of fire" scenes. 

He single-handedly makes the Brotherhood interesting. They haven't amounted to anything yet, and the show has enough dead ends with Dorne et al. Manbun and the Resurrected Firesword Guy are okay, but nowhere near Hound-level characters. With the Hound there, the show can kill Manbun or Firesword without turning the Brotherhood into a one-man band as far as the audience knows or cares.

As we all know from watching the show death = development. Except when death = okay, we're done with you now. 

16 hours ago, Capo Ferro said:

 

A.  There are quite a lot of super-human abilities displayed in the books and in the show.  Yes, Dany surviving the funerary fire (which isn't as one off as some people suggest -- it's something that's hinted at before it happens with Dany enjoying bathwater that her handmaidens find scaldingly hot and hinted at after -- the line about Viserys being no dragon is from the books.  Danerys does get burned and blistery in the book but there is a lot of textual support for the idea that Daenerys is, if not immune to burning, at least unnaturally resistant to heat damage.  Yes, Warging (something Bran, Jon, and Arya all display) and greensight.  Also other varieties of prophecy (Melisandra, Mirri Maz Dur, Magy, the ghost of high heart (though she may be one of the children of the forest) probably Patches, the wizards of the house of the undying, others), shape shifting (Melisandre, the faceless men), resistance to poison (again Melisandre) the ability to resurrect people (Thoros of Myr and, in the show, Melisandre), resurrection after drowning (the Ironborn, Patches), unnatural strength (the Mountain).  Neither these, nor unnatural quickness and aptitude for fencing are in any way inconsistent with it being a story about human internal struggle when confronted with a variety of painful experiences.  I just don't see how the Brienne/Arya battle in any way works against Martin's project or what he has already done in the first five books.  It seems to sit very easily with them to me, particularly as the faceless men are very much part of what Martin has already written and Arya was clearly consigned to the faceless men for care and training when we last saw her in the books.  We know, then, she was on her way to becoming one of the Eumenides capable of implacably delivering death to any living person. 

Brienne herself must have superhuman powers. If this were reality, she'd never be one of the greatest knight-like people in the realm. She simply wouldn't have the strength for it. There's no way a woman with her body in real life could beat the Hound in a fist-fight, certainly. Have you seen the size of that guy? I had to suspend my disbelief and imagine she had magical strength, although the show never informed me of it. That was poor writing. 

With Arya, it's even worse. Because I can imagine Brienne was born to be a fighter like Dany was born to be unburnt. But I've watched six years or whatever of Arya's life, and up until this past episode she showed no evidence whatsoever of being a virtuosic sword duelist. And not just that, but able to beat perhaps the greatest swordsperson on the show with inferior equipment.

Did she eat a magic potato on her way to Winterfell?

15 hours ago, Capo Ferro said:

 

C.   Brienne is certainly an accomplished warrior in the books and in the show.  But it's not like she's Arthur Deyne or anything.  Beating the Hound doesn't maker her Arthur Deyne.  The Hound is a highly experienced warrior and a brutal killer but also not Arthur Deyne.  She also fought well against Jamie Lannister but wasn't better than him "Brienne remembered her fight with Jaime Lannister in the woods. It had been all that she could do to keep his blade at bay. He was weak from his imprisonment, and chained at the wrists."  She also beat Loras Tyrell and others in the melee at Bitterbridge but she had a morningstar there and a melee is a very different style of combat. 

You are really stretching. Why? I guess Brienne taking on an entire band of Boltons doesn't count because horseback. Larry doesn't count because Larry was tired, and Loras doesn't count because...morningstar? You have to compare her to the guy who's known as the greatest swordsman ever, because why? Oh yeah, because Brienne is in the running, on the show at least, to have been presented as the greatest swordsperson ever. 

There are really on a handful of other candidates. The Sword of the Morning, obviously. But we only knew one of his opponents, Ned Stark, and "poor dead Ned" was losing to Larry before the Lannister spearman interfered. Brienne was beating Larry on that bridge, year in captivity or not. So we don't really know if Arthur Deyne could beat her. Odds are yes, but I don't know. 

There's Barristan Selmy, but we only saw him old. The Mountain and the Viper were awesome, and we don't know how Brienne would stack up against them. She beat the Hound. Jon Snow has been bested by lesser men. Arya's dancing master was impressive, but we don't know just how good he was. 

At worst, we've seen about 5 better duelists than Brienne, and it's arguable she's the best. We've only ever seen Arya duel one other person--not in the same conditions with the same weapons, but actually with better odds on her side than against Brienne--and she repeatedly got her but kicked until she put out the light. 

3 hours ago, Illiterati said:

No, kicking Arya to the ground wouldn't be an injuring blow.  A training sword to the head or other parts of the body would.  She absolutely held back until she saw that Arya could defend herself, and incidentally, the swift kick came upon that realization..

Obviously she wouldn't want to hit Arya in the head with a sword. Same goes for Pod, for that matter. Because that's how sparring works.