elle_by_the_sea

Stupid.

@ House Cambodia and loverofcats: Thanks very much for the quote. I'll be honest, though, : after reading that, I can only think that GRRM and I vastly differ as to what "bittersweet" encompasses. If, for GRRM, his series up until this point has had a lot of bittersweet turns, then I say, yes, the ending will also have that same brand of bittersweet tone to it. I'd say his universe is utterly grim, and pretty unrelenting, so for me "grim" and "unrelenting" is what I'm expecting to the end of it. All am looking for is great execution, which I've gotten up until now.

Without snark: can you point me to the interview were "bittersweet" was promised? I would say, as a rule, GRRM does very little "bittersweet". Every possible shade of grey, yes. Bittersweet not as much. Satisfying, - I trust GRRM will know how to get there. People will be upset even if it's brilliantly executed. The Red Wedding caused an uproar when it came out, but it was deftly written, made thematic sense, and upped the stakes. Though of course I hated it, it was brilliantly executed and narratively consistent. I expect for the ending of the series to be both of those things as well.

I actually loved it. I really dug his scenes with Arya, - and I loved that he went out like a brave warrior, braving the fire to kill Gregor. I never expected Sandor to either have or survive Cleganebowl, so I was nicely surprised.

@ sweetsunray: hey, thanks for the more specific take on the matter. It seems avuncular marriages are a level too close within Westeros, then. In that case, Jon's stance does make much more sense.

But highborn are not outside the spectrum of morality in Westeros. That only ever applied to Targaryens. Plus, Jon was raised discussing/around the mores of noblemen. If the wiki is accurate, and Starks married half-uncles before, then it is certainly questionable whether third degree consanguinity is considered an abomination in the North that lies before the Wall. The personal aspects you cite do make sense, however. And I don't know how into genetics these people are that Jon would be doing so much math regarding blood affinity, - especially since Dany does not appear to be able to bear children. However, since the show and the books pertain to related but different realities, it seems that show runners have taken a different stance than Martin. Within the context of the books, it's very possible Daenerys/Jon wouldn't be frowned upon not only because they're Targaryens but because the laws of consanguinity are not as strict. They seem to encompass only first degree and second degree, which is to say no parent/offspring and no brothers and sisters. About the topic: Daenerys was at a low, vulnerable place, but that doesn't make Jon responsible for meeting her sexual demands. He offered what he could, but she seemed to want sex specifically.

And we are inside her POV. If she held feelings of true disgust about the possibility *specifically* because of the blood relation, she'd have made a mention of it. She's been happy to be alive plenty and still alluded to what her true take on matters are. Yes, consanguinity between uncle-aunt/nephew-niece is in medieval laws closer than first cousins. In the context of the series, we're not exactly certain.

About incest and the North. According to a Wiki of Ice and Fire: "... in the north, Serena Stark had been wed to her half-uncle, Edric, while her sister Sansa Stark had been wed to her half-uncle Jonnel Stark." And, cousins who are wed, include: "Rickard and Lyarra Stark (first cousins once removed)." Plus, Sansa doesn't recoil at the notion of marrying Robert Arryn on the sole basis that they are first cousins. About Jon: the sense I get of him is that he was taken but never in love with Daenerys, and there was always some wariness/fear where she was concerned. It would've been interesting if Jon decided to propose to Daenerys to assuage her fears. My personal take has always been that Daenerys wants to rule not be someone's consort. Her descent to utter ruthlessness could have been better presaged if it'd been preceded by her denying to take the route of wedding to cement her claim. About Daenerys: I liked her, and I always had a notion this was where she was heading. I'd say there has been meta and in-text foreshadowing throughout both the books and the tv series.