lojzelote

We are told that Ramsay won't hear the word Bastard so he isn't going to use it against Jon.

The pink letter can only really come from Stannis, the Boltons or the Watch. If it is a fake, well Thorne was all ready for it, wasn't he?

That's because he's touchy about his status. It humiliates him. I doubt that he cares how Jon or any other bastard feels. In fact, I think it's likely he would try to rub Jon's face in his bastardy, now when Ramsay himself is a Bolton and the Lord of Winterfell.

I really don't think Thorne has anything to do with it. How would he know about the wildling women and Mance, how would he know about Reek? If anybody other than Ramsay wrote it, it was Mance.

I think it clear that one out of Ollie and Thorne has to do stabby-stabby and the other has to try to save him.

But Thorne doing Stabby and Ollie saving him looks most likely to me. FTW is a betrayal of Jon by the Watch. So it has to be led by the most senior members, not the most junior if he is even a member.

There is a strong hint in the books that Thorne may have written the letter. Certainly it isn't from Ramsay, a man who kills anyone who uses the word 'Bastard' in his presence.

What hint? That he's generally a dick? Also, Ramsay only hates that word when it refers to himself.

Not gonna look for it, but I posted a snippet from one of the producers that said something like 'on her account, Sansa has claimed winterfell in the name of the Starks.'

My reaction was like, really??? By ALL accounts, the Boltons just claimed The North entirely. What is this guy smokin'?

Sometimes I get the feeling that our world is joined with an alternative universe. That's the only sane explanation for some people's opinions.

http://angrygotfan.com/2015/05/21/a-rape-victim-speaks-out-on-the-sansa-scene/

How about this one?

Reading the way some posters are bashing this episode based purely on shocking visual elements, I find it to be bizarre to say the least.

1. Personally, I wouldn't call Sansa's first sexual experience with Ramsay to be "rape" per say, but it was unsavory and nothing to defend as noble or praiseworthy. However, lots of people on this forum seem to be intent on calling it a "rape", so if there is going to be some mass movement to redefine the word, then please just say that is what the agenda is. As for the act itself, producers D&D would be wise to ignore these accusations and continue to produce the best show for what GoT is intended to be.

Really? Did Sansa seem willing to have sex to you?

I can't even... did you miss Ramsay's sick, mocking smile? Sansa obvious reluctance to undress and the way she braced herself when Ramsay tore her dress and pushed her down, the desperate expression on her face? Her disstressed screams of pain? A crying, horrified Theon?

She obviously didn't want to marry Ramsay and she obviously hoped there will be no consumnation, but (unfortunately too late) realized that he's a dangerous psychopath who doesn't care for her consent at all and would take pleasure in hurting her, so it's better to comply or he'll hurt her even worse.

Anyway, pretty much everybody called this rape, including the people who are part of the show and the scene. If you're looking for definition of rape, try an explanatory dictionary. It is indeed true that it has changed through the times.

"The rape will make Sansa's revenge a hollow victory"...... So what? Why should it be a sweet victory? Sweet victories are a bit cliche. I think it is much more GoT-like to have bitter revenge than sweet revenge.

"D & D could have prevented the rape in several ways"..... Yes of course, but why should they? That's the kind of cliche writing that makes viewers believe (even if the knife is one centimeter from the hero's throat; even if an army is 100 times outnumbered, etc.) that a happy end is still possible. Such an unlikely escape can be used once or twice in a seven year show, but the default should be that if a hero is in trouble, s/he should be killed, raped, tortured, etc. Otherwise, it kills the suspense and the realism. It becomes a fairytale for children.

"They cut all sort of material, yet they include this rape scene"..... Yes, because D&D like this rape-scene. And why not? "But it is just for shock value!!!!" Yes, why not? Television is about eliciting emotions, that is the only reason for people to watch a show.

"We care more about Sansa than about Jeyne Poole"...... Yes, that's why it is more interesting/shocking/rewarding to have Sansa raped than to have Jeyne raped. That's precisely the reason. Just like it was more interesting/shocking/rewarding to have Ned beheaded than to have Lord Umber beheaded. These kind of decisions make GoT stick out and be memorable.

So D&D have already over the limit by 50 or so. How many times did Tyrion alone avoid death in a very contrived way?

@David: agreed. But that's a weakness i.m.h.o.

I wouldn't criticize D&D for doing it right once. It doesn't make sense.

More like, I wonder how Tyrion managed to avoid his own raping he inflicted upon helpless women of Essos. But I guess that in their interpretation, it would feel very forced if sex slaves didn't offer this charming drunken dwarf sex for free.

Some of their decisions are simply disgusting. Really, think about it:

Sansa:

Let's deny all logic and take this major female character out of her own plotline and put her in harm's way to be brutally raped by the worst psychopath possible. It's make the audience more invested in the WF story.

Tyrion:

Let's ignore major male characters highly problematic attitude to women and his going as far as threatening a helpless woman who has no choice but to have sex with him if he wills it and later fucking a beaten down, apathetic slave girl lying there like a rag doll. Instead let's make a hooker be charmed by this kind drunken dwarf and offer him free sex, an offer he nobly declines (of course!) because he still can't get over the memory of his beloved Shae or something.

I'd puke. :stillsick:

Well, the best thing about this episode was the exclusion of Arya's storyline, which is truly boring as a Latin lesson this season. They should have skipped her altogether like Bran, and Sansa as well.

OTOH I was actually surprised that I was missing Cersei and Marg's catfighting. Not much, I guarantee, but it is something.

Otherwise it was shades of boring, at least the Dany controversy spiced it up somewhat. I guess Show Dany got into the pissed off mode sooner than Book Dany, which I don't entirely blame her for because Meereen stands on its head. I expect that Hizdahr will be the Harpy, so at least he gets some sweet comeuppeance sweating in terror by Dany's side, heh. I mean, it's got to be Hizdahr, hasn't it? The only other Meereenese character that stands out is the prostitute at the attacks, but it cannot be her unless

a] it's an important noblewoman who pretends she's a common whore... I know that D&D came up with Talisa, but this would likely be overkill even for them,

or b] she's just a prostitute who has enjoyed to be a fuckdoll without any right so much, she fights to become a sex slave again.

Although going by what D&D have been doing to Sansa, they may thing that women who are utterly at mercy of sadists and monsters feel empowered, so who knows. *shrugs*

I voted 8.

Whatever I may fear that future episodes bring, this one was entertaining and I enjoyed it very much.

The two points off are for the Dornish birthmark scene which lived up to its full cringe potential and some inconsistencies (Cersei's fourth child, Varys in S1 having been okay with assassinating Dany, Stannis knows it was Roose Bolton who killed Robb, Dany is now afraid of fire).

For sanity's sake, I judged it on its own, as the show Game of Thrones, not as the adaptation of ASoIaF... because then the result would be much, much worse.

I wonder why this particular episode seemed like the right one to give to George, as opposed to, say, 3, 4, 6, or 8. You figure, you've got him for one episode a season, you'd surely want to give him something special in some way.

They probably hoped that if they give him an uneventful episode, he - as the author of the books - will work his magic on it and it will come out better.

Look at that closing scene again. There are few of them wearing shields, and at the very end, appears one wearing a Stark shield.

I don't really understand what you mean by 'Not their zombies.' There is a difference between the Wildlings and The Others. The Others are zombies. And I was referring to them.

No, they aren't. The wights are thralls of the Others, they're magically controlled dead bodies. The Others are living beings, probably completely different species that humans.