LugaJetboyGirl

[quote name='Itkovian' post='1297741' date='Apr 2 2008, 13.39']Not just the wall, but pretty much any serious laws of the kind. His opinion of Jorah, for example, he made it rather clear he was going to behead him, and would still do so if he fell in his hands again. So, yes, what Jon did in this chapter is exactly what Eddard would have done... but he would not have had to, because no one would have dared defy him like Janos did. And that's the whole point Aemon is trying to make I believe. Eddard had already proven he was more than willing to enforce his authority, as I am sure the Old Bear had as well. Jon, however, still hadn't proven to his men that he was capable of making the hard decisions, and he remains a child in the eyes of most (including Janos, obviously). By justly enforcing his authority, by hanging one who disobeyed and defied the direct order of the duly appointed Lord Commander, Jon proved he was ready and able for command. Or some such. :) Itkovian[/quote] I really wish that we knew something about how the law is enforced at the Wall. Have we ever learned how they deal with insubordination?

[quote name='Jughead of the Round' post='1295646' date='Mar 31 2008, 23.38']I am without speech at the greatness of this chapter. LugaJetBoyGirl: Any word on which fort Giant went to? Any mention of Dolorous Edd in this chapter? Or Melisandre? Pyp, Grenn? Ghost?[/quote] Pyp and Grenn are in the hall when Jon confronts Janos. As Eponine said, Ghost sleeps at the foot of Jon's bed. We also see him chewing on a bone, I think. That's pretty much it. And like Ser Scott, I can't remember which fort Giant goes to. Pod might remember, but I don't think he is back in computer land yet.

[quote name='TrackerNeil' post='1295556' date='Mar 31 2008, 22.03']I agree with Ran here. Slynt was in his way a fool, and yet he managed to gather quite a bit of support from both the gold cloaks and the black. Hell, the man was the strongest candidate for lord commander until Mormont's raven did its little trick. Clearly, Slynt has a way of building a certain following among the men he commands, and that may be what got him his promotion from Robert. Also, after the Sack of King's Landing I don't imagine there were a whole lot of available candidates.[/quote] And this is why Jon saw him as so much of a threat, it seems to me, and why he knew Janos had to go.

[quote name='Ser Scot A Ellison' post='1295105' date='Mar 31 2008, 14.41']LJBG, As I pointed out earlier, I think he's even harder than Ned. Ned lost his head for attempting to protect the children of his enemy. Jon was threatening to kill the child of a friend.[/quote] Word. I totally agree.

[quote name='Ser Scot A Ellison' post='1295079' date='Mar 31 2008, 14.26']LJBG, I think Slynt has a habit of underestimating people. He certianly underestimated Tyrion. TFM, We were never actually with Jon during the times those events are revealed to the Watch. This time it appears he would have learned of Tywin's death within the two and a half day period covered by this chapter.[/quote] Maybe there is an even earlier Jon chapter that we haven't gotten! Maybe Jon already thought a lot about it in an earlier chapter that we have yet to see. That would explain why Tywin is really not in the forefront of his thoughts, but Bran is. Obviously he is steeling himself to rule like his father, to be a man, rather than a boy, so it would make sense that he is thinking about Bran and Tommen rather than Gramps. Just a wish :)

[quote name='Ser Scot A Ellison' post='1295021' date='Mar 31 2008, 13.47']No, I don't think so. Sam left at first light the day [i]before[/i] Slynt was executed. Someone else, Clidas perhaps, was keeping the ravens. If the news arrived, as I speculate, between Sam and Aemon's departure then Clidas the old raven keeper may be one of Thorne and Slynt's cronies. Sure, but this is Jon over a contiuous two and a half day period. At the start he thinks of Tywin as alive, if I recall correctly. At the end of this period we have Slynt yelling that "If Tywin were alive..." It would be unusual for word an event as momentous as Tywin's murder to reach the Wall and receive no comment. Then again, as LJBG pointed out, it was a busy two and a half days.[/quote] Yea, but wouldn't Janos be a bit less cocky if he'd just found out Tywin was dead within the last 24 hours? You'd think he'd be slightly less sure of the situation. Unless he underestimated Jon [i]that[/i] much, which is possible, I guess.

[quote name='Ser Scot A Ellison' post='1294963' date='Mar 31 2008, 14.07']shev, You mistake my point. I don't think Tywin would waste any time on Slynt that's not the issue. That someone would report Tywin's murder to Slynt [i]before[/i] Jon is a sign of Jon's weak hold on the Lord Commandership and why it is an absolute neccessity for Jon to firmly establish his control of the position. Once Slynt disobeyed a direct order, he had to die. If he didn't Jon would be seen as weak.[/quote] Agreed. I don't think Tywin gives a damn about Janos Slynt. I can see them worrying about Jon leaving the wall and trying to rally the North, but since the power of Winterfell is broken, they know he can't be much of a threat. So Janos Slynt might only be potentially useful in his attitude towards Stannis. Janos is such a moron. How could he think that his friends in Kings Landing are worth anything when Stannis Baratheon is like 10 feet away from him? Douchebag. Oh man, I can't wait to see Jon start kicking some ass, now that he is in a position of power. I imagine that we will get some major satisfaction out of Dance.

[quote name='Ser Scot A Ellison' post='1294423' date='Mar 31 2008, 06.43']One thing that isn't clear. At the start of the Chapter which takes place over the course of two or three days it appears that Jon, in his discussions with Sam, is unaware of Tywin's murder. Then as Slynt is being dragged off, he is aware of Tywin's murder. I suppose the news could have arrived later in the day after Sam, Gilly, and Maester Aemon left but it isn't mentioned overtly.[/quote] Ser Scott, The more I think about this, the more I think that it is significant. At the beginning of the chapter, Jon was contemplating the Lannisters and how much he hates them. But he never once thinks of Tyrion or of Tywin, and you'd think that, given Jon's vengeful musings, he would really really be dwelling on this. After all, he liked Tyrion. They were buds. And here Tyrion takes revenge on the Lannisters while Jon takes revenge on Janos Slynt. Of course, Janos yells 'If Tywin Lannister were still alive, you wouldn't...' When he hears that, Jon doesn't think anything about it, but maybe that's because he's kinda busy at the moment.

[quote name='Ran' post='1294362' date='Mar 31 2008, 04.11']So, any confirmations regarding George stating that this chapter was in SpectraPulse magazine? Because from what George reported, it's totally not the same chapter. I'll also guess the magazine itself was not available at TechniCon.[/quote] Ran, I have no idea about that. For some reason I thought it was going to be the same chapter, but it is very likely that I made that up in my head. I can't remember where I got that from. It might have been us speculating. Maybe someone else at Technicon remembers where I got that from?

[quote name='The Fat Man' post='1294255' date='Mar 31 2008, 01.05']LJBG: Is the implication that Jon had this planned from the beginning as a way to force a showdown and hang Janos? Is there anything about Jon having men hold the winch cage, for example, or expecting Janos to balk at his orders? Or does Jon make his decision on the spot, face to face with Janos?[/quote] Well, when he is talking about his plans to send Janos away, he mentions that Janos must be a good leader, even if he is a jerk. He's got to know how to deal with men or he would have never made it into the the Gold Cloak position. Perhaps this is where the Jon Arryn tidbit came in (i can't remember exactly). I couldn't say when I was hearing it that Jon knew Slynt would refuse from the beginning, since we didn't know what was coming, but now looking back it seems clear that he strongly suspected it it would come to that. (His nightmare by the way involved sewing a head onto a body, so maybe his feelings about Robb and about the forthcoming thing with Slynt are mixed up in there). He must have known that he would have to hang him when he walked into the hall because he had all the men with him, following behind him and they seemed to know what he wanted them to do; all Jon had to do was nod. He also had Long Claw strapped across his back, which is one of the reasons Thorne backs down. And I don't think it is Jon's habit to wear that thing to breakfast :) He knew there might be a fight coming. Also, Jon's thoughts right before he says 'hang him' made me think that he'd been thinking about the problem a lot, had weighed every option, and knew he had no other choice. BTW, I was wondering about the hanging rather than the beheading too. At first I thought that a Night's Watch escapee is one thing, but direct treason against one's lord is grounds for beheading. But then I remember Robb and his only beheading moment. So that wouldn't work. It may well be that personally beheading the accused is a Stark thing. No one else seems to do it. Jon is of the Night's Watch, not of the Starks. Perhaps personally chopping off Janos' head would have looked too much like revenge, but by having the other men obey him in his gallows command, it reinforced his authority to a greater degree.

[quote name='Atreides' post='1294220' date='Mar 30 2008, 23.19']Jon giving a show of authority by hanging Slynt...excellent! He shows the Watch and Stannis that he means business, and he avenges his father (though does he actually know how much involvement Slynt had in Ned's downfall?).[/quote] Yes, I forgot to say that part. I think (if I remember correctly, I didn't take notes) that Jon looks at Janos while in his office and wonders how big of a part he played in killing his father. He thinks about how easy it would be to pull out his sword, cut through bone, fat, sinews, and chop off his head. His anger about what's happened to his family really comes out in this chapter.

[quote name='shevchenko65' post='1294232' date='Mar 30 2008, 23.39']Does Jon read the passage Aemon marked off in that book in this chapter?[/quote] No, Aemon tells him about it and he says he'll read it. And okay, that's right, this must be Jon 2. For some reason I forgot that Jon runs into Sam in the hallway in Jon 1.

This morning at Technicon George read a Jon chapter. It was totally awesome. It covers the discussion between Sam and Jon from Jon's point of view. Here's what happens. Jon is in his office/solar thing. He's reading a letter that Aemon wrote up and he is not very happy about it. It's for the Lannisters in Kings Landing, asking them to help the Watch. Jon thinks about how much he hates Lannisters. He sends for Gilley. She comes in and he tells her that she is going to have to switch the babies and leave. She obviously doesn't want to do this because she thinks that Melisandre will burn her baby instead. Jon explains that once they find out that the baby is not Mance's, Stannis won't let her burn an innocent. Giley is upset and cries, saying something along the lines that she and Sam saved the baby from the cold, how can she leave it? Jon is pretty much a hard ass and says 'you saved one baby from ice, now save another from fire.' He makes her stick her hand in the candle flame to sink in how much worse it would be to die by fire. She has no choice about it so she runs from the room. Also, Jon keeps thinking "kill the boy' but we don't really know wtf he is talking about. Then Sam comes in, and the scene plays out from Jon's point of view. Not that different from Feast but you can tell what he's thinking. He tells Sam that he's going to send Giant and Janos Slynt to different forts to fix them up and watch for wildings trying to climb the wall, since he has to seperate Janos from Aliser Thorne to keep trouble from happening. Sam reveals, incidentally, that Janos Slynth was originially given the command of the Gold Cloaks by Jon Arryn. Sam doesn't want to become a Maester because he's afraid of blood, etc etc. Jon tells him he has to go and thinks 'kill the boy, kill the boy for us both.' He also makes some angry comments about the Lannisters, about how Tommen and Bran fought together in the yard at Winterfell, how Bran won, but Bran is now dead and Tommen wears a crown nestled in his stupid yellow Lannister curls. Eventually Sam leaves, upset. Jon also thinks about the letter of Aemon's that he had to sign and his conversations with the old man. Aemon had told him 'I'm going to tell you something that I told Egg when he was declared king. He was 33, a man grown, with kids of his own. But I told him in order to rule, he had to kill the boy inside him. Kill the boy and let the man be borne.' So now we know why Jon was thinking 'kill the boy' every time he had to be a hard ass. He goes to bed and doesn't have any wolf dreams, but has a nightmare. Nothing really special, prophetic, or such like. The next morning he sees Sam, Aemon and Gilley off. Jon goes out and walks the wall, talking to the Watchmen in person, visiting, hearing things face to face; he even chats with the King's men. (It's very Ned-like.) He hears from one Watchman that Stannis sent some knights south but no one knows why, and Jon thinks 'Stannis has his secrets, and i have mine.' Then he meets with Giant, and gives him the command of one of the forts with 20 Watchmen and 10 King's men. He tells him about all the things he needs to do to repair the fort, that he will be getting a Maester and two ravens for emergencies. Giant rolls out. Next Janos Slynt comes in. Jon tells him that he is getting the command of a fort, with 20 Watchmen and 10 King's men. Janos flips and is totally impertinant, calls Jon a boy, and says that he is not going. Jon says 'yes you are. be ready at first light.' Janos leaves, scoffing at Jon. Next morning, Janos isn't in the yard ready to leave. Instead he is in the hall eating breakfast with Aliser Thorne and their cornies, laughing about the whole thing. The hall is full of men, Grenn, Pip, Donal, King's men, Thorne's supporters, etc. Jon walks in with like 7 guys behind him. He says 'Lord Slynt, you are supposed to be preparing to leave.' Slynt's all 'whatever.' He and Thorne laugh. Jon says 'I'll give you one more chance.' Janos says some stupid ass shit about how he doesn't have to listen to a boy, that he has friends in King's Landing. Jon gives the signal, but he knows he is making a gamble because so many watchmen supported Slynt and Thorne in the election. Two guys grab Slynt and pull him out of his chair. Everybody in the hall is like 'oh shit.' Thorne grasps his sword hilt, looks at Jon, and then removes his hand, slinking away from Slynt. Janos now realizes that he is in serious trouble. He is dragged from the hall into the yard. Slynt makes a big scene, yelling about his friends in Kings Landing. 'I was the Lord in Harrenhal' he cries. Stannis and his men come out to watch and so does pretty much everyone else at Castle Black. Jon says, 'Take him to the wall.' He thinks, 'I could send him away somewhere else, but if I send him to east watch, he'll come back to cause trouble.' 'Take him to the wall,' Jon says, 'and hang him.' Slynt freaks, yelling, struggling, kicking as they throw him into the cage and start lifting. 'I have friends, if Tywin Lannister were alive you would never...' His voice fades away as he is lifted to the top. The rope they found was a hundred feet long but the wall is seven hundred feet tall. They hear his neck crack as he hits the end of the rope. Jon glances back at Stannis. Stannis nods, then turns and goes back inside. Yes! The end. So so so so satisfying. Oh, and for the Hound fans, GRRM pretty much said that he was alive, saying 'it will be very interesting to finish his story, since he is such a grey character.'