Smoke317

On 4/17/2023 at 12:19 PM, nimlot said:

I am all for it. I don't actually like the idea that much because I can't see the logic behind the narrative. And I can't imagine Arthur doing all this stuff Mance does, but again we know almost nothing about Arthur. Also there is one contradiction: Arthur's camps were orderly and Mance's chaotic. But maybe even this is a clue. 

But some elements around Mance are definitely connected with Arthur. Especially and his fight with Jon Snow while he was concealed as Rattleshirt. And if he and Jon are related (uncle or father) then the scene is so cool. 

 

Arthur’s camps were orderly in the South because he was dealing with disciplined knights & soldiers.  He’s had to adapt to how the Free Folk live since joining them.  They are much more chaotic and less structured. But somehow Mance (Arthur) has still found a way to do the impossible and unite all of them.

And I think if Arthur believes in the prophecy of Jon being the promised prince, he would willingly go North and begin the process of uniting the Wildlings.  Basically establishing Jon’s army in the War for the Dawn.   Imo, I think it also sets up the strong possibility that Mance sent the pink letter in an effort to entice Jon to bring the Wildling army to Winterfell where he will eventually reveal to Jon his true lineage down in the crypts of Winterfell.  

I think the Daynes are caretakers of Dawn and the chosen protectors of the Promised Prince(s).  Ashara chose to go with Aegon as a caretaker under the guise of Lemore or she could be Quaithe guiding Danaerys, and Arthur chose to go up North with Jon.  
 

Part of me still thinks (hopes) Dawn is in Lyanna’s tomb and Mance (Arthur) is gonna reveal to him his destiny as the one who will bring the Dawn.   How cool would it be to see Mance training Jon in how to use a 2 handed Greatsword?  But what if the twist is that “the promised prince” was actually a promise made to the Others that they would be given a Prince who would become their King and the Children & Men reneged on the deal? That could be why they tested Waymar in the prologue. To see if he was their Promised One.  He wasn’t.  Jon with Dawn will pass the test and will ultimately make the sacrifice and become the True Nights King or King of the Others and lead them back to the Lands of Always Winter.

On 1/12/2023 at 7:53 AM, King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd said:

I think Edric’s father had to know Jon’s true identity. And it makes sense for him to keep it, considering it a way to honor his brother’s sacrifice.

 

I also think that perhaps Arthur either let Ned and Howland kill him, or he in fact committed suicide. Think about it, if the most legendary knight survived and runs away, people would look for him. They’d wonder about why. When they’d find him with Jon they’d probably be able to put 2 and 2 together. At that point either Arthur has an army to surround Jon or he has to die, in order to protect him. Him being alive raises too many questions.

Would an army consisting of every wildling north of the wall be big enough to surround Jon?  

On 1/12/2023 at 2:18 PM, King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd said:

What if Arthur committed suicide and Ned was honoring Arthur’s final wishes, to protect Jon? He made the promised to a dying Lyanna, and made the same to Arthur to protect his King. But Arthur knew, as long as he lived, Jon would be in danger. He is the most famous Knight in the 7K, brother to one of the most famous women in Westeros, and best friend the recently deceased Crown Prince. He’d have to flee very far away to diminish any risk of being recognized. 

Is North of the Wall far enough away?

On 10/6/2022 at 9:59 AM, Sandy Clegg said:

More of a quick question rather than speculation.

If we assume Jon will warg into Ghost for his POV chapters in The Winds of Winter, do we assume that Ghost will then leave Jon's body and go travelling North of the Wall? I know that's the general consensus among a lot of the fandom. But it seems like a long trek for a lone wolf to take, no? Now, I've read posts suggesting that Ghost himself may have warging powers, so  ... will Jon's chapters perhaps take us into the POVs of, say, Nymeria, Shaggydog and Summer? That would mean Jon's chapters get insights into goings on in the Riverlands, Skagos (even more, if Davos rescues Rickon), and North of the Wall via Summer. Could Jon/Ghost even warg some ravens and give us POVs from further afield? 

Basically it just seems like a looooong journey to get Ghost further north than Bran has gone already, and GRRM would make more efficient use of Jon/Ghost's POV by having him warg to various locations. It also solves the issue of having Ghost and Jon's bodies being too separated, as surely they would need to be close by in order for Jon to 'rejoin' his resurrected body (assuming - as most of us do - that this will happen). I know fans are waiting to explore the Lands of Always Winter via Jon/Ghost's POV but if he's warging ravens, for example, or Summer, then this could still be a thing.

What do you think guys? If we get warging POVs from Jon/Ghost in multiple locations, where else might he be able to see?

I imagine the Lands of Always Winter will be explored in Bran’s chapters.  He’ll be the one warging Ravens or whatever animal is needed to do his reconnaissance. 
 

If Ghost goes beyond the wall, I could see him crossing paths with the wildling skin changer who warged into his 1 eyed wolf for the last time.  Maybe Ghost will claim that pack as his own and eventually form a super pack with Nymeria’s Riverland pack?  
 

Talk about “a time for wolves”…

On 8/23/2022 at 9:45 PM, Ser Yorick Ampersand said:

The issue has to do with the worldbuilding aspect of the Valyrian obsession with blood purity, which is an important aspect of how the Valyrians achieved what they did (as GRRM hints in the recent video on dragons and magic).

Anyone trying to defend this is not a serious person. It's done only for political reasons, everyone knows it, it only robs from the estabilished canon, ruins the lore, ruins plotpoints, ruins contuinity. Furthermore the showrunners said the quiet part outloud about white people on the screen. They are just racist and politically motivated, pursuing estabilishment/hollywood racial propaganda agenda. If they said the same about any other race they would be fired on the spot.

It’s you that can’t be taken seriously. 

31 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I  hope he is talking about some main POVs (pre-AFFC) being wrapped up soon.  If not, it's going to be a long wait.

I wonder if the 2 arcs he’s “maybe” speaking of are connected by location?  Like Dany & Tyrion or Brienne & Jaime?  Arianne & Jon Con?

On 7/18/2022 at 7:15 PM, Lord Varys said:

 

You seem to be more in tune with the books (been some years since my last reading).  So if not Stannis, who do you think wrote the pink letter?  And if Ramsey, you feel it was clearly a fake and he was lying, since you still feel Stannis will sacrifice Shireen.  So, in your opinion, what was Ramsey hoping to accomplish?  
 

I’m sure you’ll provide factual evidence from the text to dispute my idea, but my other option besides Stannis being the author was Mance.  Mance knows all the details contained within the letter as well.  And he also has motivation of getting Jon to rally the wildlings and bring them to Winterfell (where he could reveal himself to still be alive and hoping to reclaim his position as wildling leader).  But the problem will be they’ve found a new leader…

Remember Mance glamoured as Rattleshirt gave Jon a good thrashing while they were practicing at Castle Black.  I can see them having a rematch with Mance expecting a repeat performance, but this changed more wolf like Jon will win the duel and solidify his place as the wildlings new leader.  

I guess I’m clearly having a hard time figuring out Ramsay’s motivation behind the pink letter if he is indeed the author.  Who are some other candidates or do you just feel it truly is Ramsey?
 

On 7/17/2022 at 10:31 AM, Lord Varys said:

I think that is quite far-fetched. The idea that Stannis could have written the Pink Letter is ludicrous. Nobody is going to rally to the cause of a king who is allegedly dead.

And, of course, a dead guy will come down and liberate Winterfell with an army of wildlings who will most definitely unite the North under Bolton rule against this turncloak freak.

Stannis left the wildlings at the Wall because he could not possibly use wildling soldiers against the Northmen.

 

First, you  rule out the wildlings & Mel sacrificing Shireen but then call my idea of Selyse & Shireen fleeing the chaos at Castle Black far fetched.  Well Shireen has to get to Stannis in order to be sacrificed right?  Maybe it won’t happen that way but I don’t think it’s far fetched at all.

And maybe only them escaping, and not Mel, is what leads to Stannis sacrificing Shireen in some last ditch effort because he doesn’t have his spiritual advisor and all he know’s is “king’s blood” works and those damn crows will probably be squawking “King” in his ear.

I also think the pink letter fits into Stannis’ storyline very well.  If he sent the pink letter in the hopes of getting Jon & the wildlings off the sidelines and into the fight, then in a way he would be indirectly responsible for Jon’s murder by sending him the bogus letter.  It could be very karmic that the pink letter, if written by Stannis, ends up being the thing that caused his wife and daughter to flee to him in the middle of his desperate military situation and ultimately placing her on site to be a sacrificial candidate.  Justin Massey will probably hide Asha (his 1st choice) and he’ll turn to Shireen out of desperation  

I’m gonna re-read Theon & Asha’s chapters from Winds.  I feel like Theon being sacrificed is gonna coincide with Jon’s resurrection or his spirit and body reuniting.  Or it could likely happen at the same time or cause something bad happening for Stannis’ cause.  Like maybe the Karstarks escaping while he’s out on the island sacrificing Theon?   Then maybe Stannis, frustrated by the Old Gods not helping his cause with Theon’s sacrifice, returns later and burns Shireen along with the Weirwood.  
 

I could see all of this happening in the first 3rd of Winds.  Basically, showing Stannis’ situation spiraling downward from the pink letter to him burning his daughter.  The Weirwoods have eyes and the North Remembers.  They remember Stannis & Mel burning weirwood trees.  Plus they know he’s not the real promised one.  It’s time for the Old Gods & the North to put this false Southern pretender down and make way for the truly promised King in the North who gonna lead mankind’s defense against the Others.

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

I don’t think it’s far fetched to see Selyse & Shireen flee Castle Black headed for Stannis after Jon’s attack.  As someone that also thinks Stannis could potentially be the author of the pink letter (in the hopes of getting Jon to rally the wildlings to his cause), I still think Theon’s sacrifice could be orchestrated by Bloodraven with the goal of resurrecting Jon or helping Jon in some way.  Maybe the sacrifice somehow costs Stannis the battle and Jon will be the one who will come down from Castle Black and liberate Winterfell.
 

I also initially thought Lady Stoneheart was gonna resurrect Jon via the Red God magic but I think it will have more impact if the person she ends up breathing life into is Jaime.  The guy who jump started Bran’s 3EC arc by pushing him out of the window.  He also has been tied to Catelyn throughout the story.  She had opportunities to kill him but maybe his end game is ironically gonna be to protect Bran?

I know the changing hair color & funeral pyre are fan fiction.  It wasn’t something I expected George to do but I still hope Jon isn’t just gone be another Red God zombie.  I’d like to see some Northern Magic play a role in his resurrection. We’ve read about Bran having a vision of a sacrifice in front of a Weirwood tree.  Whether it’s to resurrect Jon or enhance Bran’s powers, I’d like to see the Magic of the Old Gods play a bigger part in the narrative.  Maybe it’ll be the warging into Ghost that will differentiate Jon from Beric & LSH?  And when Jon is resurrected, he’ll have full Warging powers?

On 7/13/2022 at 5:25 PM, Lord Varys said:

Jon would have to sacrifice somebody who is important to him. Daenerys sacrificed Drogo (and in a sense also Viserys and Rhaego) so for Jon it would have to Arya or any of his other 'siblings', an (unborn) child, or a lover. Think of Euron setting up his big spell by sacrificing a brother, a lover, and an unborn child of his.

 

I was excited to hear George say that things were changing organically and some major themes that he may have told the show runners could still wind up happening differently in the books.  I’m hoping Jon’s resurrection or rebirth is one of them.  My idea of how it happens plays into your Euron & Dany theory.  Dany sacrificed a witch (holy figure) and her son with King’s blood (Rhaego perhaps inadvertently) to wake dragons.  

For Jon’s awakening, I hope it’s done by Val & the Wildlings & not Mel.  Not Mel directly anyway.  Mel gave them motivation for payback when she burned Mance.  I could see the wildlings strapping Mel (holy figure) & Shireen (King’s blood) to Jon & the rest of the dead’s funeral pyre.  

And when the ashes are cleared away, the somehow unburnt Jon Snow, who was murdered,  is dead and the yet unnamed Aemon Targaryen is reborn.  He’ll have a streak of platinum in his naturally dark hair and some darker than the darkest purple eyes (to offset his future brother in arms Gerold “Darkstar” Dayne).  I’d imagine the Wildlings would quickly fall in line behind their new King.  Selyse & Shireen could even manage to escape Castle Black to Stannis (so he could still eventually burn her himself) and Mel alone could be captured?  
 

This opens the door for the possibility of Bloodraven influencing things in order to sync up Stannis sacrificing Theon (King’s blood) to the Weirwood tree and the Wildlings sacrificing Mel (holy figure) and these being the catalysts for Jon’s resurrection through a bit of Northern Magic mixed with the Red God Magic with Mel actually embracing the flames and praying for the rebirth of Azor Ahai with her own death. 

In Euron’s sample chapter we see him sacrificing Aeron (holy figure) and many other holy figures plus his own unborn son (his king’s blood).  Maybe his spells raise that dragon egg that he alleges he threw overboard?  Imagine us witnessing Euron raising that egg from the ocean in the middle of a sea battle from Aeron’s pov?  That could be a legendary chapter in ASOIAF history. Although, it’s more likely that the horn & his Valyrian armor are linked.  The dragon that hears the horn will be bonded to whoever is wearing the matching armor.  That dragon flies to Euron. So either way we could read about Euron tearing things up in a sea battle with a dragon at his command.  
 

I think Euron is that dark force that’s gonna upset the three dragons (Dany, Aegon, Aemon) prophecy and potentially bring down the wall.  He either kills Aegon or he somehow gets the Iron Fleet & potentially a dragon caught up in a Hardhome type situation?  He’d make a prime target for any Other seeking a dragon & ships (to just sail the dead around the wall).  Oh yeah, he’s also got some badass Valyrian steel armor to make a potential “Boss” Other/Night King impervious to Valyrian steel and in control of a dragon.  I still get hyped thinking about the possibilities.  I think George still has some great things in store for us readers in The Winds of Winter that will vary drastically from the HBO series.  
 

I really think he’s re-found his motivation to finish Winds by just finally deciding to completely change some major things that the show butchered and really emphasize the other parts that they cut out.  With the Jon Snow show getting his blessing, he seems to be saying he wasn’t happy with the way GOT’s stuck the landing with his characters.  So he probably feels justified in creating an entirely new ending and entirely different paths to that ending.  HBO doesn’t care.  The money from the original series is already banked.  Him creating an entirely new ending even justifies them to reboot the series in 10-15 years as the definitive GRRM version. 

Just now, SamuelVimes said:

But didn't they offer Sansa another Tyrell to marry, wayyyy back when? When she thought it'd be Loras? Or am I remembering the book rather than the show? 

Book. Show made it Loras. 

I liked Battle of the Bastards but this was the best episode in Thrones history in my opinion. Not a dull scene involved. Everyone's acting was on point. Damn what a way to end the season. 

7 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

I don’t see that finding Dawn in the crypt means anything other than that Rhaegar had told Lyanna that their son would someday need to wield it in the War for the Dawn.

But I somewhat doubt that it’s there.  I could be wrong.

I still don’t like how all the names sound the same: Dayne, Dawn, Dorne, Doran.

So since Rhaegar & Arthur were best friends, I can see them discussing the great prophecies of their houses. They realize that the Targaryen prophecy is a spin off of the Dayne prophecy. Dayne is a much older house than Targs but both share Valyrian blood...  So they come to the conclusion that the promised one will be the sword of the morning and the Dayne's have been caretakers of the sword until the true Sword of the Morning will arise again. Jon is that promised one.  That makes good sense to me. So there could be a letter from Rhaegar and Dawn in Lyanna's crypt explaining who Jon is and what/who he must become. 

Lyanna clearly mouthed "his name is..."  Also I think it was pretty damn striking that Ned clearly stands the Greatsword DAWN at the foot of the bed...  I know it's probably R+L=J but I'm still holding out hope that Arthur Dayne is Jon's father and DAWN will be what Jon finds in Lyanna's crypt. He is the Sword of the Morning. The one promised to battle the Night King and end the Long Night. 

Kinda disappointed. No BF death scene. No waif death scene (though it was in the dark). Cersei/Lancel I choose violence scene was muted.  Feel pretty good about calling the bloodstain on the wall being breadcrumbs to lead the waif to the fight in the dark though...  Everything felt kind of rushed though. If we can get Arya, the hound, Brienne, the BWB, and Nym and her pack for a grand finale then all will be forgiven...  I know it's probably been stated but I'm calling it now, the Blackfish will play the ladystoneheart role. Beric will pass the flame to him and he'll help lead the destruction of House Frey. And he'll kill Edmure and Brienne will be forced to fight Jamie...  And then they go north to fight with Jon vs the walkers. 

Don't know if the acting troupe or Lady Crane is scheduled for another appearance but someone must patch Arya up. I expect Arya will end the waif next episode though. I expect her to leave the blood trail on the wall luring the waif into the dark where she will stick her with the pointy end. 

1 minute ago, Darksky said:

Death kinda has its toll on people

I suppose. He sure didn't have a problem showing some fire when Sansa suggested they keep recruiting more houses...

I have been very hard on Sansa but with the way the show is portraying Jon, I don't blame her one bit for writing that letter to whoever the hell she wrote it to...  Where is Jon's fire?  Where's his leadership?  Taking command?  Like when he took over the watch during the battle for castle black...  Like when re recruited men for the raid on the mutineers?  Like when re rallied the wildlings at Hardhome?  Why not go around preaching about the WW's coming?  Why so fucking quiet?  Why Davos has to be the only one with any fucking sense or fire in his belly?  Jon's character has regressed and the shit is dumb. Now he doesn't even want to try to rally the Cerwyns or Manderlys...  Sansa please help this damn fool because he sure ain't coming across as the King in the North I expected him to be...

This chapter was amazing. Too many posts to read them all, but did anybody else think the Valyrian armor in Targ colors that Euron wears ties into Jon's dream of himself armored in black ice with a red sword in his hand fighting the wights and walkers???  I definitely think we'll be getting a Jon vs Euron clash and Jon will wear that armor in his fight vs the Walkers. Damn. what a chapter. 

33 minutes ago, TheGreenBell said:

I have been thinking about this for the past few weeks. Really thought right a way that it was quite off that Davos wanted Jon back. They weren't even close friends and etc

And with there allegedly only a season and a half left, I think it would have been good for the show to resurrect Jon on his funeral gpyre with Mel attached. That would have hinted ata Jon/Dany connection. But I think D&D may be saving the real resurrection for GRRM and not wanting to spoil everything from the upcoming book. 

For once Sansa finally came across like a badass Stark. Even though it took her being in the company of her big brother, I'm ok with that. Maybe now I can somewhat begin to understand all the "Sansa Queen of the North" foolishness. Only somewhat though. At least D&D didn't push that crap and had her always say "our" home and bringing up all her brothers and sister when referring to reclaiming Winterfell. Sansa has always been my least favorite Stark but she's begun to win me over this episode. And Sophie showed great chemistry with Kit. She seemed really comfortable working with him. I hope they keep them paired together for a while. I'm finally ready to accept Sansa as a Stark. 

18 hours ago, Tinker Tanner said:

I liked the bit at Pyke when that strong gust of wind violently swung the bridge making Balon grab for the rail, but Euron didn't even flinch. Got good sea legs on him.

Me too. Really made Euron look like a badass. He never grabbed the rail once. 

For example, I definitely don't think Mel will be resurrecting Jon in the books. My money is on Val and Bran bringing him back via the Weirwood tree North of the wall. Maybe even via a blood sacrifice (Mel and or Shireen). Hopefully the show can differ from the books and not come completely off the rails. As long as they leave Dorne out and stop the Tyrion cock jokes, there's hope. 

I'm definitely pro book over show. But the pettiness I've read in some of these posts is ridiculous. I for one hold out hope that GRRM will finish both Winds & Spring. Thus I hope the show deviates rather far from the books from this point forward because I want the books to be fresh and unspoiled when they do come out. It's clear we'll get a lot of deaths this season because of budget cuts. I'm cool with that if we truly only have roughly a season and a half left after this one. Let's streamline down to the characters that really matter. One nitpick I did agree with though was the color of young Lyanna's hair. She looked to close to the weakest Starks/Tullys (Cat & Sansa) then the "True" Northern Starks Jon, Arya, & Bran. For me this was a damn good episode. The one I waited nearly a year for. And it looks like next week will be just as good. ToJ coming. I'm hyped. 

I think a lot of people are missing the way they are setting up the Shae character. I think she will play the Ser Dontos role next season & help Sansa escape. Though she mistrusted littlefinger earlier, I think she will end up trusting him to get Sansa out of the city. Naturally with her being Sansa's maid servant she will be suspected. I think she'll sacrifice herself to get Sansa out & Jamie will tell Tyrion about Tysha & Tyrion will ask about Shae and Jamie will tell of how she's hanging from the walls. Tyrion snaps and kills Tywin. A great way to use the necklace is if Tyrion finds it in Tywins room, and hangs it around his neck and says his "shit gold" line after shooting him with the crossbow. I could live with that being the last scene of episode 9 next season.