Isobel Harper

Torrhen might be one of the German-influenced names we discussed up-thread. Tor means gate in German. Tormund means gate protection/protector. There's a city called Rhen (I think) somewhere in the Rhine valley. Don't quote me on that. Doubt there's a connection to that though. ETA: the hen might be from the German diminutive ending chen, which mean little or small. Little or small gate? The CH in chen is a glutaral fricative, sounding something like a harsh H.

http://www.wordplays.com/anagrammer

There's also this: http://m.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=6728 and this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lodestone as potential sources for the name Lothston.

Sounds similar, especially if you have a lisp like Vargo Hoat. Here's another potential Lightbringer symbolism for ya' : He plunged the sword into a tub of rainwater to quench it. The hot steel hissed angrily. AFfC, Brienne VII Rainwater/Aurane Waters? I recall a user theorizing that Daenerys will try to make a LB child with three men, Waters being the first (unsuccessful) attempt. I personally have a hunch that Aurane will be Viserion's ultimate rider. (Viserion was the first to hatch, so it makes sense that his rider would as parallel the "first attempt." The sun's son has already failed; Tyrion the "lion" (or BBP through him) will also fail I believe: that is, the people who attempt to ride Viserion will parallel the forging of LB in reverse. The name Aurane might also stem from the Latin name Aurea/Aureus which means golden.) Anywho, theories side, this potential pun is something I'm gonna keep in the back of my mind.

I was listening to one of LML's YouTube podcasts earlier today, and his co-host pronouncs Asshai on the first syllable. It sounds almost like Ash Eye. Ash Eye reminds me of the Gods Eye for some reason. LML theorizes that a meteor once feel to Planetos causing the Long Night. Perhaps Asshai once was a holy area like the Gods Eye before being destroyed by the meteor? (And the current city rebuilt after that?) The only people we know from Asshai are Melisandre and Quaithe, red priestesses. Red priests see visions in the flames, like a greenseer but in a fire not a dream. So, one could call their "sight" an "ash eye" not a third eye. Hope this isn't too off topic. I know we talked about "eyes" up-thread, in addition to Asshai. Just wanted to add to that.

Yeah... I just recalled that fruit seems to represent sexuality at least twice in Sansa's arch. The first example is in the Dontos scene that Seams mentions above, with the melon juice running down her face and onto the front of her dress. The second example is on the Fingers when LF offers Sansa a bowl of fruit. She chooses a pear, whose juice runs down her chin. (Side note : while I think pears represent sexuality, it seems to also be potentially connected to conception and/or motherhood. Specifically, I'm thinking of Daenerys finding Viserion wrapped a coil around a pear tree.) I meant "semen cloak" as a joke, obviously. Maybe this is just a coincidence. ETA: I often say that Sansa's love for lemon cakes symbolizes her need to "sugar" the truth and see things through rise colored glasses, so to speak. I enjoyed reading your analysis of lemon cakes.

Well, GRRM did name him Lem Lemon Cloak. Maybe he was trying to point out the anagram? (Eeewww.)

Ok. On a more serious note, we were discussing name meaning up-thread. I swear I read once that the name John/Jon meant "God has promised," as in God promised his mother (Elizabeth?) a son. Now I can't find any such translation anywhere. I thought that would be a cool tie-in to tPtwP. Another potential bible influenced name is Aurion. Apparently, "aurion" is a (Hebrew?) phrase meaning "on the morrow." Literally, it means "on the morning breeze." If my understanding is correct, one could also interpret "aurion" as meaning "at dawn." Dawn was the "new day" after the Long Night. However, the only Aurion we have in ASoIaF died after the Doom (another major disaster) trying to reclaim Valyria. So, not sure what the connection would be. (See translation here: http://biblehub.com/greek/839.htm) Aurane (which in our world also means "breeze" or "morning breeze") is perhaps derived from the name Aurion in story. Jacaerys is the Velaryon form of Jaehaerys, and Lucerys is a name specific to Velaryons. (Perhaps while the Velaryons were away from Valyria, they began to form their own dialect?) Anywho, the point is that Velaryons have been known to take Valyrian names and give them their own twist, and Aurane might be their "twist" on Aurion. I have more ideas than conclusions unfortunately. "Aurion" being in the bible was a recent find, and I found it worth noting. Hope y'all find that interesting.

The only anagram I can find for lemon cakes is semen cloak.

The Seven Swords was the largest inn in town, a four-story structure that towered over its neighbors, and the double doors on the house across the way were painted gorgeously. They showed a castle in an autumn wood, the trees done up in shades of gold and russet. Ivy crawled up the trunks of ancient oaks, and even the acorns had been done with loving care. When Brienne peered more closely, she saw creatures in the foliage: a sly red fox, two sparrows on a branch, and behind those leaves the shadow of a boar. I forget if we discussed this already... Could this be a play on the saying "killing two birds with one stone?" The stone could represent Alayne Stone; the two birds, Sweetrobin and HtH; the fox, LF; the boar, death (whether literal or symbolic).

Not sure where to put this find, if indeed it is significant. And if it is significant, I'm not entirely sure what it could mean. Copper + Tin = Bronze Bronze is an important metal to the First Men. The Thenns (First Men wildlings) mine copper and tin to make Bronze armor and weapons, House Royce wears Bronze armor carved with runes, and Robb's crown is made of bronze, also carved with runes. That is, Bronze is culturally significant to the First Men. Except for Arya, the Stark children have Tully-red hair. But of all these children, only Sansa's is described as "copper." Now tin... Here are all the mentions of tin in the series: https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=tin&scope%5B%5D=agot&scope%5B%5D=adwd&scope%5B%5D=tmk&scope%5B%5D=acok&scope%5B%5D=twow&scope%5B%5D=twoiaf&scope%5B%5D=asos&scope%5B%5D=thk&scope%5B%5D=trp&scope%5B%5D=affc&scope%5B%5D=tss&scope%5B%5D=tpatq Tin is not a particular valuable metal. Needle is mocked for being "just tin" by one of the children in Yoren's party leaving KL. And Theon laments that the Ironborn only have "iron, lead, and tin to mine. No wonder they still take up raiding" (paraphrase). Other mentions of tin involve maesters and fools dressed as knights. Both Pycelle and Aemon describe tin (when describing the metals in their chain) as a base metal, but no less important than gold. "Gold is a lord, steel is a knight, but two links don't make a chain. There are other "metals" (ie people) that a maester chain has, which symbolize the people of the realm a maester must serve." (To summarize, terribly I'm sure.) Tin, as stated before, is also worn by fools dressed as knights. Dontos, Patchface, and Renly's fool are all mentioned as wearing tin armor. Fools dressed as knights... Reminds you of Florian the Fool, no? And who do we associate with Florian the Fool? Sansa. So, we have Sansa (copper) and "Florian" (tin) = ??? (bronze) Now, one could predict that this alludes to Sansa's ultimate suitor/husband. Tin is described as "silvery white" or "grey," so if we look solely at hair color, perhaps someone Valyrian. Aegon, Aurane Waters, or potentially anyone really with Valyrian features. I'm tentative to say, however, that this is not the case. BASE/baseborn/base metal I think the "tin" is more symbolic than literal. Sansa is hiding as "Alayne," a baseborn girl from Gulltown. Pycelle (or Aemon?) made the connection for us that metals = people. Sansa, as Alayne, has evolved into a new sort of metal ("to porcelain, to ivory, to steel") albeit a BASE metal. Sansa lost her wolf, losing part of her connection to the First Men, but she might regain that back someway by being Alayne. I think Sansa + Alayne = Bronze ties into the Alysanne portmanteau that we discussed earlier. Back then, we discussed her taking knowledge gained while as Sansa and Alayne as using it to turn into some kind of Good Queen Alysanne 2.0. As for Florian = tin, Alayne is learning to be her own hero, albeit slowly. Under Alayne, Sansa will learn to be a player, not a pawn, in her own destiny.

Lothston/lodestone: Lodestone is a stone that attracts iron, i.e a magnet. The term can also be used symbolically to mean a thing that attracts attention/a focal point. Harrenhal is literally and symbolically a focal point in the story. It's smack dab in the middle of Westeros, and it's also a place where many characters intersect and effect each other's story. Arya reunites with Jaqen here, who encourages her to join the FM. Jaime and Brienne are brought here, where Jaime saves Brienne from the bear and they begin to learn to trust each other. Harrenhal is one of LF's main ambitions, if not THE ultimate end goal for him - this could explain his lust for Cat/Sansa, the red-headed Whent/Lothston(/Qoherys?) heiresses; they could be immune to The Curse. And last but not least, let's not forget about the Tourney at Harrenhal. The only place in the story where more people's paths cross is at the Inn of the Crossroads. Speaking of crossroads, Whent is a surname given to someone who lives on a crossroads. http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Went (Side note: Went/Whent/Wend are variations of this surname. I wonder if there is some sort of connection between the Whents and Wendish Town?)

There might be some distant Targaryen blood within some Lyseni prostitutes, but I doubt the nobility has interbred with these descendants. Valyrian features and the dragon-riding trait aren't necessarily connected. (Long story short, I think the Valyrian fair traits/albinism genes assist in dragon-bonding traits being expressed, but those genes don't control bonding by themselves.) Bloodline appears to matter SOME to Free City nobility. Remember that Illyrio was shunned from Pentoshi nobility after he married Saera. And in Volantis, only families of Valyrian descent can live behind the Black Walls. But regarding, Saera/Serra, many take their similar names to mean a relation between the two. Some Lyseni were attempting to return Viserys II for a price. (Alyn Velaryon and the Rogares helped prevent this from happening.) It's unclear exactly what these Lyseni had planned. But what almost happened to Viserys II is essentially what's happening to Aegon VI: Illyrio and Varys up to their old tricks, stealing something valuable and selling it back for a price. Very interesting! We made the hair/heir connection up-thread. This could tie into that. Both Sansa and Danelle Lothston have red hair. Sansa could potentially be Danelle's heir. ETA: hair/heir/QoHERys/HEIRess

Perhaps there's a connection between the Shy Maid and Asshai. A Shy Maid/Asshai Maid?

This answered my question. Sorry for being unclear. And so sorry for going too off topic. Yes, seagreen/green sea/greensee(ing) could be a potential pun in the story, but my thoughts were steering more towards House Velaryon than the pun.

I've been reading through the Nennymoans thread, but haven't had a chance to reply. So you think Velaryon is a clue, but not necessarily significant in itself with regard to greenseeing or figures of the Underworld?

My own personal theory is that Lothston and Whent (who I also feel are related to one another) are related to House Qoherys. It's commonly thought that the Curse of Harrenhal originated from House Hoare. But the last member of that house was Harren the Red... Red Harren/red herring. Quentyn Qoherys was the last member of House Qoherys to hold Harrenhal. He died bleeding to death in the castle's godswood after being castrated. Now, if someone were to put a curse on any other family to hold Harrenhal, wouldn't it be him? I believe Lothston and Whent have survived the Curse (via the female line) because they are descended from House Qoherys in the female line. As for Lothston having Targaryen blood via Aegon the Unworthy, it's possible but I don't think it's significant. I believe that the dragon-riding gene(s) is linked to the X-Chromosome. Aegon the Unworthy's X-Chromosome came from his mother. His mother wasn't a Targaryen; she was a Lyseni noblewoman and most likely had no dragon gene(s).

Kudos to all of you on the Patchface/nennymoans thread for figuring out Bran in the weirwood net as being "under the sea." I've recently become aware that the Velaryons might be a sort of Lord of the Underworld like the Starks (many thanks to sweetsunray for her Chthonic thread, her analysis of the Starks, and the many sweet ideas it's given me) and I feel that the duality of the Underworld - land or sea - ties into this. Stark/land/Others and Velaryons/water/...Squishers?

Question: If green sea = green see (a connection made in the Patchface/nennymoans thread), then could sea-green be connected to greenseeing? Only connection I can find is Addam of Hull (a Velaryon bastard) visiting the Gods Eye for council during the DotD.

Wow!

Reynes of Castamere 2.0? Again, I'm discussing name parallels. Rolph Spicer (Jeyne Westerling's maternal uncle) was recently rewarded the lands of Castamere and its old gold mine. Castamere was the seat of the now-extinct House Reyne. The names of the Westerling children are very similar to some players involved in the Tarbeck-Reyne Revolt. Jeyne's oldest brother is Raynald, which is only one letter different from Reynald (ie Reynald Reyne). Jeyne is very similar to Reyne, and she was formerly queen. Reine (a homophone of Reyne) is the French word for queen. Jeyne's youngest sister's name is Eleyna, which is very similar to Ellyn (ie Ellyn Tarbeck). My thoughts on this possible parallel is that it would be an INVERSE of Rains of Castamere, not a repetition in it. House Westerling will play a role in House Lannister's downfall (which seems impending) and will be (symbolically at least) Reyne's revenge by proxy.

From Quote: "Alysane is an echo of the name Alyson which derives its name from the Alyssum flower. It is Greek for "not insane". 'a' is the 'not' and 'lys' comes from 'lyc' which is like "having rabies, madness' which that meaning is derived from the word Lykos "wolf'." Or perhaps "not a wolf" or "anti-wolf?" We discussed earlier of the possibility of "Sansa" and "Alayne" being a sort of anagram/portmanteau if "Alysanne." Sansa lost Lady and is evolving (imo) into a bat/Whent and Alayne is a Titan/Titan's daughter. Queen Alysanne was, per some theorists, anti-warg and/or anti-direwolves. These theorists conclude that Queen Alysanne moved the NW headquarters from the Nightford to Castle Black in order to cease the migration of direwolves into The North, thereby inhibiting the Starks warging ability.

^^See my ETA.

Re: Brienne/septa. Brienne and the relationship with her septa, when I read that quote isolated, seems to be an inverse of Sansa's with hers. Both girls thought that all men were as noble as their fathers. Brienne's septa taught her to reject this idea, while Sansa's septa (who is often partly blamed for Sansa's naivite) encouraged it. Brienne takes her septa's "lesson" and learns from it, while Sansa essentially (throughout her arch) has to unlearn her septa's lessons: Not all men are beautiful in some way, i.e. Joffrey. Men will want her for her title/land, not for her beauty. Lies can be "kind," ie a lie is okay if "kindly meant." Speaking of kindly, the term "kindly" is connected to both Sansa and Arya and their current "apprenticeship" to lie. Sansa repeatedly rationalizes "kindly meant" lies, while Arya is learning to lie from the "Kindly Man." Not sure if we can analyze "kindly" in a similar way when it appears in other POVs, but it's a parallel I felt worth noting. ETA: Myranda is very blunt. Yes, I can see how she might be associated with truth. With regards to mirror and looking glass, there's also Myrish glass. Is Myrish glass used in mirrors? Only use for it that I recall is as the glass for greenhouses. Interestingly enough, LF tells Sansa to IMAGINE the glass (Myrish glass, truth) being in the snow-WF greenhouse, essentially another lie he teaches her. Re: Kindly/Myranda/truth: "Kindly lies" and "unkindly truths" are opposites. But when truths are literally paired with unkindly, there described as "NOT unkindly." So, technically, lies and truths can be kindly. GRRM just keeps them in the form of opposites: kindly meant lies, not unkindly truths. Sansa never calls LF's truths "unkindly," but does call his lies "kindly." Is she trying to draw a parallel between LF and her father? Not sure. Also, with regard to kindly lies and not unkindly truths, what conclusion should we draw about the "teacher" of such lies/truths? I note Osha to Bran, Mormont to Jon among the teachers of "not unkindly" truths (per asearchoficeandfire.com) They are teachers that mean well for their students. So, does LF still mean well for Sansa, or is he still using Sansa? That is, is teaching "not unkindly truths" and "kindly lies" just a different side of the same coin, or is their something different we should gather about truth-teachers and lie-teachers? That is, "not unkindly truth" teachers mean well, but "kindly lie" teachers mean to use/misuse their students. I'm thinking the latter with regard to LF. Last but not least, Myranda is a truth-teacher, but due to her blunt nature, her truths usually ARE unkindly meant. Does she mean to use/misuse Sansa too?

Just kind of spitballing here... Breaking one's fast (eating breakfast): One breaks their fast in the morning, ie after dawn. Arya makes a connection between hunger and love in AFfC. To paraphrase, the Kindly Man asks Arya if she's hungry, to which she admits that she is (via internal monologue) but not for food (ie but rather for love). The Starks in particular have been hungering for love and reconnection throughout the whole series, although I feel that the constant state of war since AGoT has left all of Westeros starving for love and peace. It's theorized that Planetos is approaching a Long Night 2.0. So, (theorizing here) at the end of the series I'm thinking of something along the lines of a LN 2.0 being averted somehow, peace being achieved, and a reunion occurring amongst the Starks - symbolically everyone breaking their fast. Dawn had arrived and everyone can now feast, and not just on food.