Chebyshov

I want whatever Jojen was on this episode...he seemed in fine form tonight

was that fan theory?

is no one else interested in that tidbit? are they really implying that the realm is substantially funded directly by the lannisters and now they're broke?

More like directly stating...I was rather alarmed

dont know if anybody posted this yet but did anybody notice the kid in the nightswatch saying hes a very good archer, hes gonna kill ygritte forsure

Ah, I figured this was a nod to him being Satin, but seeing as we never really know who killed Ygritte, these two things aren't mutually exclusive.

Did anyone else notice that Littlefinger told Sansa that they were going to the Eyrie? So they are not going to the Fingers first? I was so hoping for the lines, "Lord of Sheepshit and the Drearfort?" and, "Nothing says home like the smell of burning dung."

Yeah, based on the promo they're heading right towards Lysa. They've got a lot of ground to cover before the Moon Door though, and only 4 episodes left to do it (episode 9 is eaten up by the battle).

That's the problem of the discussion. Nobody says the mutineers should be knitting socks for Craster's wives. Nobodys says we shouldn't see them as rapers. Showing the woman close-up, sweating, breasts dangling in a warm fire light and thereby eroticising the act is something else. Why were they beaten - they didn't seem to resist? Do we only see them as bad guys if the rape is graphic? I liked how Ras was trying to be more tender with his one, trying to kiss her back, stroking her, reaching out for something else than "fucking them til they're dead". Yes, they're bad guys. But are they all? Don't some of them feel that their transgression has spelled doom for them? The books are so great because they avoid black and white characterisation. This scene is one of the most blunt and pointless instances of black and white characterisation. Only the second sons' commander last season was worse. Both cases were some clear cases of pretty bad screenwriting, imo.

:agree:

Also, I still maintain we didn't need much help to reach the conclusion that these are men we should hate. They're mutineers. They chained up Ed and Grenn. This was poor writing.

Actually he says That someone isn't you. I thought Jon's comment that someone had to train them was a dig at Thorne for not doing it.

Ah, you're right! It probably was meant to be a dig, so I guess briantw's point about acting LC makes sense.

I agree but was Thorne not the guy training men in the show at the beginning? If so why isn't he training the men now?

Thorne still is...Jon even says "someone has to train them," and Thorne replies "...and that someone is me."

I think Jon and Grenn just had some down time and were trying to help.

Nobody argues that the show should not show rape or sex - but it has to serve a purpose to show it, it should be narratologically necessary. If it's not, it's showing rape for the sake of rape, which is problematic. The scene at Craster's was stylising rape in a very uncomfortable way, showing it like this served no purpose. I like that the show doesn't shy away from nudity - but it's getting to a point where it's becoming ridiculous. I sometimes feel that HBO is a teenager testing its limits – which at least for people used to European TV and cinema seems infantile and pathetic - a lame attempt at provocation.

I think the flippant way in which rape was tossed in served to vilify the mutineers more, and raise the stakes for next episode. But it was so absolutely not needed. They so overdid painting these guys as "bad." I mean, seriously, drinking from Old Bear's skull? Tormenting Ghost with water? We already hated these men...they're mutineers after all.

It was disgusting and voyeuristic. Maybe they thought they needed to make everything really explicitly terrible (and "realistic" to how the mutineers behaved), but this was so overboard. I defended the show heavily on this subject last week; I was very disappointed by this moment.

Agree. That leaves everyone to think that they are pure evil. And there is no reason for their survival outside of killing humans.

I thought the "horns" were supposed to be like a crown?

Finally made an account to say..

WTH JUST HAPPENED?!?!? ARE THEY EVEN TRYING TO FOLLOW THE BOOKS?? DID WE JUST SEE THE GREAT OTHER!?!??

SOMEONE PLEASE ENLIGHTEN ME :stillsick:

I heard people saying the White Walker Maul scene was from TWOW...maybe the prologue? I can't find the source that though.

And yes, they're definitely following the books. They know how it ends. They know they have to get from point A to point B. The books may be taking the meandering, scenic route, and the show may be taking the highway, but I think where the story ends will be quite similar.

OMG I HOPE THEY DONT DO IT THIS SOON. I can not begin to imagine the crazy riots that would cause.

Agreed! I'm already freaking out at the mere possibility of it. Let's just hope the show runners stick to subtle blue flowers, for funsies.

Is there any definite information on TV-Tommen's age? Not the actor's, but the character's age. It would be interesting to know. Did I miss a mention of it in the show?

According to GoT wiki, approx 12 in season 4: http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Tommen_Baratheon

They didn't say anything, but I think we're supposed to conclude he's pre-pubescent (Tywin mentioned something about "when you come of age") in 4x03.

Edit:

That all being said, back in Season 1 Loras says that he's 8. And we know a couple of years have passed (LF to Sansa in 4x03). So I think the show-runners are hoping we won't notice a 2-year age jump for him.

Well, considering how the kingsguard let two kings, a hand, a high septon and one of their own members die in their watch, aside the fact the Margaery just slipped right through into the king's chambers, I wouldn't be surprised if Olenna just took the cup and slowly dropped the poison inside.... but, I agree with you.

Fair enough :lol:...the 7 greatest knights in Westeros are quite a joke as of late.

Even if it was, indeed, rape, it was addressed quite well this episode, and will likely be bought up later on as well.

The relationship between Jaime and Cersei was colder than it has ever been- I bet the events that occurred in the sept played a part in that.

Agreed. They have a dysfunctional, damaging relationship. None of their scenes have been out of character for either party.

Also. Pretty sure there's no one way for a rape victim to act afterwards. Especially knowing she has no recourse/it would never be acknowledged as rape by anyone around her (and apparently a fair amount of show-watchers :dunno: ).

Actually, if you listen carefully when Olenna passes in front of Joffrey, right after getting the poison from Sansa, you can hear a 'clink', as if something is dropped into his chalice.

Another option is when Joffrey places his cup in front of Margaery's seat when they're both standing during the pigeon pie scene. Olenna is right beside.

Or it could be in another hour, offscreen.. it really doesn't matter.

The "clink" I thought was her dropping it off with Marg (that theory's out the window now), but I thought the Strangler is rather-fast action, so that's why I ruled out that moment.

You're right about the other option, but Olenna is standing at a different table, and would have had to walk a good 10 feet (in front of a guard, no less) to do it. Possible, but not particularly intelligent on her part.

I guess the show probably changed the timing for the poison to take effect, but the logistics of it irk me.

How did the poison get into Joff's cup? Did they ever explain that or is it going to be left to our imagination?

I think we'll never know. Rewatching that episode shows that it was ridiculously difficult for Olenna to do it (even though we know it was her now) when the poison had to go in the cup (during the pie-cutting). I think the director said something like, you won't be able to actually see the poisoning take place, but based on framing and reactions, you should be able to figure it out.

So who the hell will rescue Bran from Craster's? Surely they won't have a scene with Bran and Jon together right? Jon knowing about him being alive is one thing, but an actual reunion, Idk how I'd feel about that change.

Well, based on the promo,

We see Jon & Co. fighting the Craster Crew. So the only thing I can think besides a reunion is during the commotion Bran escapes (probably wargs Ghost or Summer to help the fighting). However, Bran's likely to see Jon through a wolf, so I don't know why he wouldn't stick around.

I'm putting 50-50 odds on a reunion

Sorry to swing so far off topic,

But what were those giant cookie looking things that were covering Joffreys eyes when he was laying in the Sept? They had eyes painted on them, they seemed like some kind of medieval burial right. The Egyptians did some serious stuff with their dead kings to prepare them for the afterlife, Joffrey is going to need all the help he can get, right?

What is the story with this? I've looked everywhere and come up with nothing!

In the pilot they had these on Jon Arryn's body in the Sept. I'd assume it's a burial practice for those who worship The Seven, but it's certainly not explicated in the books. In fact I believe Joff is wearing a helm with a closed visor in the books.

Yeah I saw that too. I still think that's how it will play out but maybe we're in for a surprise.

We could. I think we may instead get another fight scene closer to the Eyrie, so that we get the added element of Arya missing out on another family reunion.

~Hoping I didn't babble everyone off the board, LOL~

Ha, what kaanchanoone said. Also I think we may all be a bit exhausted from yesterday's discussion.

I noticed that right away, but became distracted with Jaime and Cersei scenes yesterday. I'm just staying away from that subject today, I think. It'll be what it'll be, and the show will probably never re-address it onscreen.

I certainly have my own feelings on the matter, but it's definitely a relief that thread was locked. And I think it's okay that we'll be missing out on Grave's directing in the next season. His post-interviewers were...distasteful.

I'm still not over Sam not sending the ravens, and I usually point out: How could he........you had him digging latrine ditches, LOL

Lol, that always reminds me of this parody video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-ovOjQVNq4 (that scene is at the 1:20 mark).

I wanted to ask: Are we sure that these words of Kit's (about him knowing about Bran offscreen, and him laughing about that) didn't mean that it was Kit who knew the truth, instead of Jon. Just wondering, I know Kit seems to have a good sense of humor, and I was wondering if that comment of his was clear or not?

It's possible he was speaking for himself, but it seemed like he was talking from Jon's PoV in the context, so who knows. I'm surprised it's never mentioned, though. Maybe on their way to Craster's Jon will say something about it?

One thing I've been meaning to mention: Did anyone notice Tywin, at the beginning of the episode, giving the order to seal the harbor or seize all the ships in the harbor? I suspect that will be how he comes across Shae? Not sure if this idea was posted yet, I haven't read the entire thread.

AH! Good catch! I had been assuming Bronn lied about her being gone, but I like this too.

LOL and JINX, I said just about the same thing. ;)

:cheers:

I also agree with your additional point that it makes them look weak, especially when so much of the Wall's story has been messed up. They've done a pretty poor job characterizing most of the NW, and an even worse job with Mance and his people. But I think for the sake of this medium, and given how unexpected the mutiny was, it's not completely unreasonable. And it was nice to see them back. I missed Ed's commentary :D

I missed why those two were kept, not just killed

I think so did the showrunners...in the book they just flee back to the wall after the attack. But I guess we needed someone to know and report back what Dirk and Rast were up to? It's a messy plot they're telling, and I don't see why CH couldn't have been included, which would have made it a bit more tidy.