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Both he (specifically) and this scene in general disappointed me. I seriously thought the father was a woman in drag or somebody getting a sex change, so I found it hard to believe that Dany & co. accepted him as the child's father. But, bad casting/wardrobe/acting aside, I was more annoyed by the writers failing to have *somebody* assume that he was there for goat money. You know, like what was done to great effect in the book, and even set up in a previous episode. Ofc, that's only one of many times (including several this episode) that the writers of one episode failed to connect the dots from previous episodes.

It's ok if *you* (and others) personally liked the actor and the scene, just don't say that the actor disappointed *no one*.

This is called "looking too hard to find something wrong".

Incorrect:

That interview was conducted in February some time, and the process of breaking down the 5th season was already well on the way there.

Also at the red carpet premiere, with the break down done, that point was reiterated when Benioff stated "at least 7 seasons", obviously implying it may take more.

Next year is when they'll have to pull the trigger on the total number of seasons.

I reiterated that they have said different things in different interviews, but like you said- they haven't made any decisions yet. That's why I would not count on an 8th season until they officially announce it.

Ranting at me is easier than watching a couple of minutes of D&D interview, I see. Since you do not need D&D's opinion to form yours, I don't think there is much that leaves to be said on the subject.

I'm not ranting at you. I did listen to some of that interview, it doesn't mean anything though unless they officially announce it. There isn't much left to be said on the subject though, because until there IS an official announcement on both the release date of the books and the seasons of the show, this is all speculation. I don't know what their opinion has to do with anything, though. My opinion will always follow what we currently know, and not what may or may not be said in every single interview they've ever done.

I have posted the link and the exact TC where D&D interview begins. Have you looked at it? Do you want me to respost it? That's where they say there will be 8 seasons.

As for the book not being published in 2015, both you and I do not know that. It was said both in 2015 and "not before" 2015. Again, in the link that I posted in response to your post D&D are talking about not being worried that GRRM writing will leg behind the show.

What is so hard to understand about this? You just have to consult the link that I posted.

Random interview #3,467 isn't an official announcement. I could find hundreds of articles with them saying 7...officially, they've not changed anything yet.

Not before 2015 doesn't mean 2015. I will not say it is due out next year when it could be due out literally anytime after 2015. 2016 comes after 2015, so it's also possible. D&D aren't worried because it doesn't affect their project at all when Martin releases the books...they have his notes and his phone number. They will proceed as planned because they have no choice...they have to continue making the show. At this point, it's Martin who will likely finish last.

You don't want to admit it, fine- but whether you do or not, the show will finish before the books- that is, unless Martin can get out two 1500 page books in the next 2 years. Considering he's not even finished with one, that scenario is extremely unlikely.

I'm sorry, but it was you who said couple of posts ago that the show will reach all book five cliffhangers before books six comes out. Since it has been announced that book 6 will be published in 2015, this means you believe the show will catch up with GRRM's writing in one season. Unless you believe TWoW will not be published in 2015. However, you have never stated this and the link I posted above shows D&D have no worries about GRRM's writing lagging behind the show.

It was NOT announced. They said "no earlier than 2015". That doesn't MEAN 2015. Just like they didn't announce 8 seasons. Show me where they have actually announced both of those things- in an actual, official announcement.

I SPECIFICALLY said that I would not be surprised to see season 6 before we get the next book. I also said that they show will likely start using material from TWOW next year in season 5.

What is so hard to understand about this? Does the thought of the show surpassing the books terrify you so much? It will eventually happen- it is impossible to avoid. And it's not a guess that they will be cutting stuff from the next two books...it's practically guaranteed. I'm also hardly the only one who thinks these things.

IF ITS NOT VALYRIAN IT'S CRAP

That's completely inauthentic, then- Needle wasn't Valyrian steel! See, they ARE ripping us off, they can't even get the details on their own products right! Guess that's what you get when the writers are the ones doing the marketing.

I am coming to Finland with Needle and I'm not taking any crap about it.

Is it the officially licensed Needle? XD

I actually wouldn't mind a theme park..

Both. marketing it to death can ruin it. I think it has this nice independent thing to it and still has all the high budget and popularity.

and of course the deviations. Who knows. Maybe a nice voice told them this and that would make for higher ratings...who knows..

Again, D&D have absolutely nothing to do with the marketing. They don't decide on product merchandising or licensing. There's an entire department at HBO devoted to that very thing- that's their entire job, is to get this stuff out to the public and make money for the company. That's how business works. The writers of a tv show would have NOTHING to do with any of that stuff. It's not their job.

If you want to complain about marketing (which, to me, is silly when the public loves that sort of thing), then you should be complaining about HBO's marketing department for licensing their brand to thousands of things. If you want to complain about D&D's writing, that's a completely different animal. They have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

It is just the George Lucas effect.

Who knows who has power. Someone had it and then it got lost somewhere, but now things roll.

George Lucas initiated and produced the new animated clone wars series, yet it is total crap and ruins so much of the good stuff of Star Wars.

You are using a very bad analogy. The two situations are completely different.

George Lucus wrote and directed the Star Wars movies, which were enormously successful. Then many years later, he took those same movies, 'updated them', and rereleased them. Then he wrote three terrible movies as prequels.

GRRM was writing a book series when he was approached by two screenplay writers who wanted to adapt his books into a show on a premium cable network. Martin agreed, and sold his rights to HBO. HBO took a big risk on a genre that typically does not do well in the adult demographic. To everyone's surprise, the show became a hit and took off. It is slated to run 7 years, if they continue to be successful.

Basically, your analogy doesn't work, because the situation of one is not comparable to the other.

At the end of it, HBO will have spent about a half billion dollars making it. Do you seriously expect HBO NOT to market their biggest hit drama since The Sopranos when they are spending so much on it? Show business isn't about charity...it's about profit. Always has been, always will be. But the people with the power are the executives at HBO, because they own the rights to the show.

If there is a gold mine, don't open it for tourists and tell everyone how cool it is, mine the gold.

More profit with that.

DD are not the good guys really. They turn around their story as much as needed, then market it like Star Wars and create a huge expanded universe.

Perhaps Grrm will have his own George Lucas moment. Where he regrets it.

It's just the truth.

I mean they already have a cook book that has barely anything to do with either show or books, aside from the name.

Sorry, I simply see no reason to bash two guys making a show for things they have no control over...like cookbooks written by someone else.

They have nothing to do with the marketing of the product...that is HBO's concern. That's how business works. HBO invests a lot of money into their product, and for their investment, they get the rights to sell products, like cookbooks, dvds, shirts, etc., which will make money for them. D&D are concerned with writing the show, not marketing it.

It's perfectly fair to criticize them for mistakes in their show...it's not fair to criticize them personally, saying that they are 'not good guys, really' because they had the gall to write a highly successful show based on some books that you like.

By the way, Martin himself wrote a forward for that very cookbook you mentioned.

Wonder how long until there will be a theme park..

with theme park rides

and themed restaurants..

catering...

wedding planning..

horse riding..

jk, but seriously, wonder if they would do a theme park.

HBO will milk that cow until there is no more left.

They already made got themed perfume.. sooner or later there will be sodas. Water Morghulis and Water Dohaeris. And of course, Pepsi Cola Special Edition: Blackwater.

Wildfire absinth.

So they say 8 seasons now. They will say 9 seasons in two years. Definitely. Movie makers are able to stretch The Hobbit into 3 4 hour movies, they will easily make the series longer.

There's a difference between marketing your product and drawing it out past its breaking point.

D&D may produce the show, but it's HBO who markets it. It's not up to them how HBO decides to market it. It is up to them how long the show will run, and they've explicitly stated that they are against milking it:

"It doesn’t just keep on going because it can,” Weiss explains. “I think the desire to milk more out of it is what would eventually kill it, if we gave in to that."

I don't get why some people try to make them out to be opportunistic hacks, because they are far from that.

If you didn't read/see it, it doesn't mean it wasn't announced.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TBfdd_xNVo

TC 29.39

I'm glad that you said that we don't know anything for certain, because a couple of posts ago you said they will exhaust all 5 books' material in season 5.

...and you must not have actually read what I wrote in my post, because I didn't say that or anything LIKE that at all. I said they will be taking from 4 different books - 3, 4, 5 and 6 next season because some characters are behind (like Jon and Stannis) and some characters are ahead (like Sansa and Bran). I never said they would finish the next two books in the next season, I said that they have 3 seasons to finish 4 books, so things will get cut, consolidated and moved around. It's not going to be strictly this season to this book anymore.

I don't get the antagonism I'm getting for stating the obvious.

As far as D&D said at the NYC premiere of GoT, there will be eight seasons. And I agree. At this stage, the show is all over the place, so God knows what may happen. As I said, we can be only certain that Tyrion arc will remain central as long as possible.

It's not all over the place. They've repeatedly stated that 7 seasons has been the plan and that it is still the plan. They've never said 8 seasons.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/03/11/game-of-thrones-7-seasons/

And I don't see how we can be certain of anything they will do- the entire story has changed. Tyrion won't be a big player in the game at Kings Landing anymore- he'll be a fugitive on the run. Suddenly the Wall just became more important to the story. Dorne will be introduced so we may not even get the Riverrun storyline if Jaime is going there. Arya will be in Braavos. It's not even certain what Sansa or Bran will do, as they will need more than what is in the books. We don't even know if Lady Stoneheart will be cut, so Brienne's story could change dramatically.

We know nothing for certain. We can guess, but we don't know what they will do for certain at this point.

It's a pity they cannot consult with you to drop all the things you dislike and make it perfect. But, do not despair, anything that has anything to do with Tyrion will be covered in detail with insightful monologues like the beetle crushing one being inserted. The Wall will be cut short with no Val, no Dalla, no baby swap etc. You'll have to suffer through the tediousness that is Dorne with its boring ruler Doran Martell whose plans always fail. But, there is always Cersei, her scheming, her arrest, her walk of shame. You think that alone can be covered in one season? Ah, there are these awful Greyjoys as well. Belon hasn't even died yet and you believe the whole Euron election/Victarion journey can be covered in one season? Sam's trip to Braavos, Aemon's death etc - one season? LS shenanigans - one season. Winterfell sequence can fit into one season alone, especially if D&D pace it as fast as they did Tyrion's arc in season 4. And I didn't even mention events in Essos. You do like a digest version of ASOIAF.

Don't be ridiculous. I haven't once said what they should or shouldn't keep in the show, nor would I. I can like and dislike what I want to without any reference to anyone else, and you have no idea what I like or dislike in those books. But it's obvious that they will be taking from 4 books next season, because some characters are behind and some characters are so far ahead that there isn't much story left for them. It's also obvious that they aren't going to spend two seasons on the next two books because there are only 3 seasons left and 4 books of material left to cover. So they will have to cut and consolidate some things. It's basic common sense. Like it or not, we are going to GET a digest version of the story, and that's not necessarily a bad thing.

The book is going to be published in 2015. You are saying that it took them 4 seasons for 3 and a half books and it will take them less than one season for a book and a half. I assume you base your conclusion on the premise that you don't like books 4 and 5 and do not see anything interesting in them.

No, they've only said that it would be published 'no earlier' than 2015.

I think from this point on, the show will be an amalgamation of books 3, 4, 5 and 6. There won't be 'this season for this book' anymore. It's going to start going beyond what we know.

And I liked book 5 but for some chapters. Book 4 had some good chapters, but overall, it wasn't my favorite. There are plenty of interesting things in both of them, but there are also uninteresting things in both of them, too. The show can focus on the former and cut the latter.

Do you really think they will reach these cliffhangers in the show before the book 6 comes out? I don't. We have to see every detail from Tyrion's life and there is still plenty of material there. The rest is irrelevant and will be invented at will.

Yes I do. I think we have a chance of seeing season 6 before we see book 6 at this rate.

What sudden stop?

The way almost every single storyline stops on a cliffhanger in both of those books is unsettling, and left me with the sense that he just decided "that's long enough" and stopped there.

^ IDK about that. There were still far, far too many cliffhangers. Very few characters had an entire arc.

They can fix that, too. All they have to do is move some stuff forward or back, and then we won't have a 'sudden stop' feel to the story like we do in the books.

People used to line up at the port where the ship would land bringing the magazine with the latest Dickens installment. Sound familiar ;)

Speaking of Great Expectations the surprise in that book is repeated as grand themes throughout ASOIAF. I was actually thinking of that when contemplating littrachewer comparisons.

Dickens was definitely the popstar of his day :)

He did a great job of portraying universal themes of rich, middle class and poor living together in disharmony in his literature, but his writing wasn't my cup of tea. I do love British literature, though, and his work is a big part of that...but Great Expectations was hard for me to get into. I must have spent 3 days rereading the first 10 pages over and over again because I would get to the end of them and was like "...what did I just read again?" It seriously just did not catch me. Now, "A Christmas Carol" is one of my favorite novellas, because it's a very well presented and written story.

In my opinion, if Martin had written AFFC and ADWD as one novel and cut out a lot of the unnecessary bloat, it would have been a great follow-up to ASOS- reestablishing the story, and introducing new characters (but not nearly so many). This is why I have high hopes for season 5, because we will see a less bloated version of these two books recombined as they should have been.

I meant that and Tyrion's magical boat. I agree that those chapters helped show the effects of the bigger pieces of the story. I disagree that they showed those effects in a good or merely pleasant manner. I think that those decisions show that GRRM is a good but great writer. I think he failed to find a good way to tell the stories about the Others, the dragons, and magic in general. That's why he writes so much about politics. It's easier than putting a POV character in the midst of the Others.

That's definitely a problem with the books, and something that is an advantage to the show. Not being beholden to specific POVs really allows us to see characters in ways we never did before. The Tyrells are more fleshed out, as are characters like Missandei and Greyworm. We actually get to know them without bias, and to see how they act when they are alone. Seeing the White Walker was big, and it finally have us just enough information about the Others to make us still think of them as a big threat...something that has gotten pushed down in the last two books for more politicking.

He's Dickens

As much as I wanted to throw "Great Expectations" across the room when I was made to read it in 9th grade, I'd rather reread it than reread AFFC in full.

/fuck maids of 13 with auburn hair

Throws up hands

Guess we need a sarcasm font?

I agree (assuming you are being sarcastic). Martin is far from a great writer. I enjoy the story quite a lot but damn he drops the ball so hard with his writing. Feast and Dance were a complete mess.

*Just my opinion. Please don't flame me too hard.*

Ha ha, yes, I'm quite the sarcastic ass around here ^^ But it's all in good fun. Martin is definitely far from the best writer, but he wrote a fun book series. Sometimes it gets tiresome seeing some people treat it like a religious text, though.

Totally agree. Feast must be a bitch to adapt as soooo little happens. It's all travelogue and internal monologue. Very little character development or overall plot development. I hope we see some radical changes, especially for Brienne and Sanza. It's a terrible book.

Well, by recombining Feast and Dance, they will automatically make it more interesting. It seems we will get Jaime in Dorne, and hopefully they will cut down on the amount of Brienne storyline. They've changed what will happen at the Wall by not having Val or Dalla (so far, anyway), so I think we will see some condensation of that storyline, as well. All in all, I think they've left enough surprising moments from ASoS and will have enough surprising moments from ADwD to make the next season work well.

It had to be said

It is known that GRRM is the greatest writer who ever lived and people will worship his magnum opus for millennia to come. I'm nothing more than a humble prophet.

:thumbsup:

Good post. I don't have any problems with changes but I feel this season in particular (and Dany's arc in S2) made a lot of changes that had little to no logic behind them. "Only Cat" and Stoneheart being removed didn't bother me but the Craster's arc added nothing but a fight scene and another reunion tease. The only thing that came from it was John spitting in Styr's face. The change to have both CB battles at once was logical and worked brilliantly IMO. Asha attacking the Dreadfort did not. My problem is that they expend time and budget on stories that amount to nothing/very little and then use their lack of time/budget to justify leaving out other storylines.

My nitpicks this season:

Locke's kidnapping Bran (like you said) and the whole Craster's arc.

Beetle convo and generally wasting Tyrion's cell time instead of using it to reintroduce Tysha or give some Tywin backstory.

No Kevan

Brienne vs Hound felt extremely unnecessary.

Rorge and Biter - I mean, Biter just jumps on Sandor and gets his neck snapped while Rorge stands around waiting for Arya to kill him.

Stannis being so passive at the IB.

How anticlimatically Dany takes Mereen. We could have had a proper siege in place of Dreadfort and Craster's battles.

Baelish revealing how he planned the deaths of Joffrey of Jon Arryn so early in the season (not a major nitpick but I feel it would have added a lot of weight to his final scene with Lysa)

Arya and Sandor telling almost everyone who they are but not the farmer.

Emilia Clarke's "acting abilities" (I know they can't recast her at this point but still...)

I fully agree. Apart from Cersei's chapters, I really didn't enjoy Feast. Brienne is by far the worst PoV since Cat IMO.

I agree with you on most of those. I did enjoy the fight at Craster's Keep between Jon and Karl 'the fookin' legend' Tanner, just because it offered us a chance to see Jon make a really, really awesome kill XD I also enjoyed the fight between Brienne and the Hound because really, ANYTHING that gives Brienne something interesting to do is a huge improvement on the book XD But I completely agree with you about Mereen and Clarke's acting...something was just really off this season with her. She was very stilted and terse. She was speaking deliberately slow and without emotion in an attempt to sound 'royal', but it just came off as 'I'm having trouble with my lines.' Honestly, the best parts of Mereen this year were Jorah's banishment (real acting!) and Daario...as amazed as I am to say about the latter. He actually really convinced me that he was Daario, and that he was just as much of a playboy and fighter as he was supposed to be, while not as flamboyant as the last guy.

But for me, the highlights exceeded the lowlights by quite a lot. Oberyn was pure magic- hot damn, I never thought I would like him THAT much. He stole every single scene he was in, and I will never forget his death. I was also stunned by episode 9 and the sheer SCALE of it. It was amazing in every way, and it was so, so much fun to watch from beginning to end. And it really was fun- I felt like I was watching the battle of Helm's deep again for the first time, which is astounding for a tv show with a fraction of the budget. And of course, the last episode was just hit after hit after hit for almost 70 minutes, it just didn't quit. I just think that, when all is said and done, and despite the occasional misstep, people will look on this season like they look on ASoS and think "wow, that was some amazing television".

I do have high hopes that the writers can really improve on the next books with how they've left everything standing. By moving some characters' stories forward and holding others back, I think they've left enough 'big moments' to breeze though 10 episodes next year. And I think they will have a huge advantage just by recombining AFFC and ADWD, simply because they should have been together all along. So I look forward to it.