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Seriously, reading through these rating of the episodes threads is becoming a real chore.

Let's face it, statistically a great episode should be around 7-9 and an absolutely perfect one ala Blackwater should be 10. Equally even the worst episode should be around 3-4, with probably no episodes deserving a complete 1 because of the strength of the source material.

However, as always, what the hell is with all the 10/10 'yay this is super perfect in everyway!' crowd? If you call that finale a 10/10 your ability to discern good television from average or subpar television is seriously open to question.

You could say 'well, each to their own' and although you wouldn't be wrong, I just feel I have to say to those people who think this is perfect ... really?

How is that episode perfect and without a single flaw? Not a single one? Please enlighten me because I actually want to know?

What I saw instead was a T.V show that has completely forgotten the source material on which its based. Just to remphasise, all the writers have to do is take a solid existing story and translate it reasonably faithfully onto screen ... that's it.

Instead they feel they have to constantly change things that don't need changing. For example:

1. How ... the .. fuck ... did the Hound and Arya just show up at the Vale and then just leave? Didn't LF hear about it? How about Sansa? How about anyone?

2. Brienne vs The Hound ... yeah that's awesome, its also good to know that, all in, the episode spent more time on that whole sequence that the Mountain vs Red Viper. So an event that never should have taken place gets preferential treatment for one of the absolute key moments in the entire series.

3. We get it, people like Tyrion, I personally never have liked him as a character (love his POV's though) but why can't he possibly ever have even the slightest shade of grey in the T.V show. Shae of course would have to straight up stab him, I mean thats completely in line with her character, and everything that has preceded with her developement since season two ... oh wait, no it wasn't.

4. The writers haven't a fucking clue about Stannis, or how to work with his storyline.

5. The writers of the T.V show consistently miss the cool little things in the books and exchange them for Podricks magic penis adventures, burbing wenches, the relationship between a eunach and a girl, stories about mentally handicapped people crushing beatles and all the other crap filler these writers invent off the tops of their heads. GRRM is a good solid writer, nobody is saying he is Shakespeare, but he is good at what he does, and is good with his characters. So why all the unecessary changing things?

So many characters on the T.V show are so far from their book counterparts in terms of developement, that without prior knowledge of the books, you are literally in another world.

But back to my point; differing opinions aside, how is that a 10/10 best end of the series ever? I genuinely want to know, how people can call that (at best) average episode perfect?

Oh and I haven't even mentioned that whole Bran travesty ... shudder.

Maybe not all of us thinks that Blackwater is the be all, end all of filmmaking in GoT so you're starting off with a flawed premised.

Just a thought.

Because Tyrion killing Shae and Tywin then escaping would be such a depressing sequence.... so they had to lighten it by having Tyrion and Jaime BFFs and screw the future character paths. OK.

You don't know how those character paths will go. This is the show, not the books. These characters aren't carbon copies of their book counterparts, and while some aren't as good, some have been better.

Oh my sweet summer child.

The show DOES need happy moments, or they will lose viewers who come to be entertained and not constantly depressed.

Something about Stannis strikes me as evil. Maybe it's the music lol.

Also, I expect the Mountain come back like Frankenstein, the way they described the procedure.

Anyone else love the special effects of the Brandon Stark scene? The skeletons reminded me of Pirates of the Carribean, so cool :) The grenades special effects were pretty as well. Maybe they can add some other special powers, like in X-Men :)

Frankenstein was the doctor, not the creature ;)

I thought the skeletons were pretty cool, myself ^^

He probably has a contract that binds him to say only positive stuff.

GRRM really loves his "children", doubt he likes it if DD play "Orson Lannister" with them in any way possible.

At least they killed one of their own. Shae. I so loved that. The best thing the show did, the improvement of that character. So much about her, her background and all, but then the butcher her for no reason at all.

Should have changed that plot point if they cut out the Tysha thing anyway. Save Shae and have a happy reconciliation in Pentos and meet up with Aegon, cut Penny. Would have worked so well. But no, we have to give more shock value.

How are they the ones adding shock value to it when it was Martin who wrote it that way originally? Just because they expanded the character doesn't mean they are going to change something that big for one of the most important characters. If anything, Martin was the one adding shock value to it. And he added more shock value by having the story of Tysha on top of it just to make Tyrion pissed off at Jaime.

I gave it a 10. I admit that the lack of a "Dany rising from the fire with a dragon" moment left me a little wanting, but not every season can end like that. Raw score would be a 9.5 rounded up.

When everyone mentioned Tysha in the beginning of this thread, I kept thinking "Who are they talking about?" and had to look her up in the wiki. Since a lot of non-book readers like myself would have reacted the same way if they suddenly brought her up in the escape scene, I believe that is why they left her out. I totally remember Tyrion telling the story in the tent, but I don't remember if he mentioned her name there. He still could find out about the lie early next season, perhaps from Varys?

I love the Breinne Sandor fight. After Tyrion killed Shae his saying "I'm sorry." like he did was awesome. And I thought that Tywin on the marble throne was excellent, totally wasn't expecting that. Varys sitting next to the crate on the boat was cool too. I am a little curious how Stannis got north of the wall.

He borrowed money from the Iron Bank to buy ships and mercenaries. He sailed to East Watch (which is another castle on the other end of the Wall, next to the sea), then disembarks from there on the North side of the Wall with his calvary.

8

One point off for the absence of Lady Stoneheart - Arya should have had a wolf dream at the VERY LEAST seeing her body or (by this point) remembering her body.

One point off for altering Tyrion's motivations for going to Tywin's bedroom. That was SUCH A RISKY move that it doesn't make sense unless fueled by immediately uncontrollable emotions...

All else really worked for me - including the small change of Cercei's confrontation with Tywin adn embrace of Jaime, and including the Hound/Brienne interlude... so pretty happy overall

No one but Bran has had wolf dreams yet...I imagine they are saving that.

has D and D commented on why they are still waiting to bring in LS ?

For fun. They like watching the internetz explode.

I gave it a 10 because it's a great conclusion to a great season. Seriously, I've had more fun watching this season than I did the first three years. I've never cared about changes, I've never cared about "sticking with the books", so I just take the show as it comes. And I thought they did a great job.

Actually defend the Wall and not go get himself killed because Ygritte died in front of him? This is a problem they created for themselves on the show. If they had just stuck to the events of the book it wouldn't have even been a problem. So now they're going to have to course correct for yet another unnecessary change.

I can't figure out why they felt the need to change one of Jon's defining moments. This episode was more about Sam coming into his own than it was about Jon becoming a leader. It's completely baffling to me why they chose to do that.

I still haven't read an explanation regarding how he's demonstrated better leadership skills on the show. I actually want to know why some think that's the case. I'm just not seeing it.

How did Jon prove his leadership in the books?

Oh, that's right, he didn't. He was inexplicably given command of the Wall shortly after coming back from the enemy's camp all while being very badly injured and unable to walk. Then he was thrown into the ice cells to die by the leaders of the NW, only then to be sent on a suicide mission against his will when Maester Aemon wouldn't allow the leaders to kill him outright.

Then Stannis swoops in and saves everyone; and everyone, despite the fact that Jon was never given any sort of trial to prove his innocence, and despite the fact that there were people who still thought he was a traitor, elect him by over a 2/3rds majority as their new leader over much more qualified, older men who didn't have any blemishes on their resumés.

So yeah, tell me how scenes like Jon standing trial (and being exonerated), teaching others how to fight the Wildlings, volunteering to lead a dangerous mission to take care of the mutineers who killed the previous LC, taking command of the Wall when it was abandoned by his superior officer, going down to lead the fight below after his other superior officer fell, and then deciding to go on a kamikaze mission as a last ditch effort to save the NW, do less to prove Jon's leadership abilities than how it was done in the books.

I love those chapters in the book- in fact, they are the chapters I tend to reread most because I like them so much. But I'm not blind to the fact that Martin made Jon LC simply because he needed him to be LC- and despite the fact that it really didn't make much sense for Jon to be elected like he was so soon after he came back from enemy territory. I think the show did a much more believable progression of events, and while the execution may not have always been top notch, it's very, very plain for anyone to see that Jon is LC material.

i can't really figure out why they felt the need to completely rewrite this part of the story. Ok so they wanted the southern attack on the wall at the same time as Mance's attack from the north. No real problem there. I remember when reading about Snow having to go out to kill Mance what a suicide mission it was. Thorne and Slynt had him screwed. In the show him just choosing this as the best path shows how unprepared he is to be LC.

What's a better plan? They have no hope of help coming, they have maybe about 50-60 men left to fight (including the injured), they don't have time to seal the tunnel before the next assault begins, and with all of the Mammoths and Giants (who are able to shoot people off the top of the Wall), they have no real hope of defending the gate for more than one or two days.

He's not taking Ghost with him because he knows he's going to die and he doesn't want Ghost to die...he's not taking weapons with him because he's going to pretend to parley, and they would take his weapons from him before he ever got to Mance- he already stated he didn't want to lose Longclaw again. If he can kill Mance, however unlikely his chances at doing so, then the Wildlings would scatter, because he's the only one holding them all together. If he doesn't go, then everyone dies once the gate is broken and the Wildlings break through. Jon's plan may only give them a 1% chance of survival, but they have none if he doesn't go.

So really, for everyone who has criticized Jon's plan, what's a better one?

Blackwater bashing to push his lame emo Gary Stu darling

COOL STORY, BRO

I liked one over the other...big fucking whoop. I didn't bash BW, either- I liked it, I just liked this episode better.

I am going to likely get burned alive for saying this, but I don't get all of the Blackwater love. To me, and I am entitled to my opinion, Blackwater was a good episode but it was also full of holes.

This episode, had a lot of scenes that were very true to the book and it still gets slammed. If they hadn't wasted 45 seconds on this we could have had more of this....come on, really?

For me, this has been the best season as a whole. Yes there have been some scenes that felt wasted but there were tens of thousands of words in the books that were wasted also, it just happens. Just relax and enjoy it for what it is, because after Sunday we have 10 months to wait and speculate again. If only we had a book to read between seasons to pass the time.....

I completely agree. I liked BW, but it was never one of my favorite episodes...but I see people who treat it like the epitome of filmmaking. I though WotW was a much bigger achievement. I've seen numerous people comparing this to Helm's Deep...that's HUGE for a tv show. No, it doesn't have all of the witty banter like KL, but it's not supposed to. These are hardened men and scared boys, all of whom are expecting to die. They aren't going to sit around, drinking wine and scaring the shit out of their bros just to be an ass...they are going to prepare and talk about women, fighting and dying. Just the scope of this episode leaves me astounded on rewatch. It's amazing, and BW pales in comparison.

Just my two cents.

Hope? Nay, I INSIST on it.

And Edd needs to order its deployment, too.

[Team Scythe FTW]

We should totally start a petition. Too bad the $20k "be a character in my book" thing is over, because I would have loved for someone to buy a spot for the scythe.

I think --and I could be wrong-- that they added the "Jon ranges to Craster's scene" to cover the Slynt/Thorne trying to get Jon killed thing.... If I recall, in the books Slynt & Thorne were at Eastwatch bts for the battle.... The change might be to help sell Jon's viability to be voted LC to a TV audience, who don't get all of the nuance we all got from the books,,,,

and I agree.... episodes are too short.... my wife yells at the TV every week at 9:52 :)

I thought the same thing as you about CK- that was Thorne and Slynt's plan to get him killed off in the show. I do like that they gave the suicide parley mission decision to Jon, though...it really reflected a lot about what he was going through emotionally after all that he had just been through in a way that being sent out would not have.

Of course, we might just be spoiled from the fact that there are no commercials XD

I gave it a 7. I originally would have rated it a 5, but I've done two rewatches since Sunday night and I have to say the episode was better the second and third time around than I thought it was in my original estimation. However, I'm still baffled by their choice to have Jon voluntarily go out beyond the Wall to try and assassinate Mance Rayder. In a sane world, Jon should know that the wildlings would kill him before he got within 100 yards of Mance. At least in the books it made sense...he was being forced out beyond the Wall and given that he was going out to parley with the wildlings...at least they might want to hear what he had to say. But with this there isn't even that much.

And I'm going to jump on the bandwagon of those wondering why the episodes are so short.

He's still going to parley this time around, too. It seems like the same situation, just a different person making the decision.

I do wish the episodes had been a bit longer this season.

Nope. Im with ya there.

I think the reason why Mance lit a big ass fire is two-fold. To scare the piss out of the Watch, but also to keep the Others/White Walkers out of fray. At least the wights. By having a huge fire at his back, he protects the wildlings who fall in battle from turning into wights and remember, this is the reason why Mance is fighting anyway. To get away from those guys.

That's exactly what I thought, too. If he has all of those people, he will need a big-ass fire to protect them from the WW.

Am I the only one who hopes that Martin finds a way to work the scythe into the book storyline? XD

I agree with most of your points here.

I gave Blackwater an 8, and realistically I was going to give this a 9 until I realised that I had cheered for Alliser 3 separate times! 3 times, ffs! So it got an extra full point from me. I'm still shaking my head over that ...

Neil Marshall only had a few days (a week or so) to prepare for Blackwater, whereas he had several weeks/months to prepare for this one.

And the first time I watched, yep, corny Ygritte death. Second watch? I teared up. :stillsnifflling:

Oh! Welcome to the board! :D :cheers:

I was hit much more with the deaths on subsequent viewings...I think I was so caught up in the action of what was going on that they didn't have time to sink in for me the first time. But then I watched it again, and I definitely teared up at Pyp, Grenn and Ygritte's deaths.

I believe he subcontracted that out to a specialist [Deems?]. A la Office Space, Slynt is a "people person".

True...why do the dirty work yourself when you have peons to do it for you?

I can totally imagine him in Office Space now XD

Perhaps, but we will most likely never know as Stannis will come in and save the day.

Well, we know they talk, because Mance says that he plans on killing every Crow in CB. Then we also see a shot of someone with a knife to Jon's throat, which could mean several things, although none of them good XD

In any case, I can't wait to see all of it come to fruition, it's damn exciting :)

5. Someone else covered this well, but I'll just add that we don't know for sure if he intends to suicide kill Mance just because he says so to Sam. Perhaps he feels like he is the only one who can parley with Mance since he knows him (ordered to in the books). So he'll try to get Mance to agree to some sort of truce, by time for the wall to recoup their losses, and try to assassinate Mance if all else fails. It's a desperate play no doubt, but as he says the will all die either way so it's a chance worth taking.

I think he will listen to what Mance has to say, but I don't think it will alter his plans to try and kill him if he gets the chance.

Well Thorne was a knight, i know the ser title doesnt need much but he did fight and survive Tywin Lannisters sack of kings landing so he must be able to hold his own. As for Slynt, firstly he was a cheat and a liar who murdered and bribed his way to command. Secondly where was he when stannis lay seige? His absence was notable!

But he can murder bastard infants and children, so he MUST be a great fighter, right?

Thorne IS a formidable fighter in the books and show, he's a seasoned NW man, chosen to train the troops (though he may fail at that) and was a seasoned knight before that. There's no evidence that Slynt is a fighter at all

Agreed. I didn't see the characterizations of either as wrong...actually, I'm glad we see a different side of Thorne than we do in the book, because he always felt too one-note for my liking. Giving him some shades of grey doesn't change his character, it just makes him more real, imo.

I can't wait!

I look forward to it myself, it nothing else for the bitching and moaning XD