Kyoshi

The books are FAR from modern classics. They are classics of fantasy, but not of all literature. Its not a question of not seeing how deep the books are, its that they aren't that deep. GRRM has quite good prose, and that's something that's gotten better over time; but the books themselves are a well-built epic fantasy soap-opera. True literary classics do more than provide diverting entertainment, they elevate us; they can make us think about the world or aspects of it in ways we hadn't before, they can inspire us, they can devastate us, they can introspection like little else. A true classic can change some small part of the world.

ASOIAF does none of that. The books are quite good, but nothing worthy of reverence.

ETA: And the show isn't as good as last season, I won't deny that. I still think it is very good though. Although I never would have put on the very top tier of TV shows. The only reason it gets talked about that way is because it is the only "water cooler" show left in the US besides The Walking Dead, and nearly everyone agrees that it is much better than that show.

Have to disagree with most of this post. I personally find the books capable of elevating me, making me think about the world and aspects of it in ways I hadn't before, inspiring me, devastating me. And judging by the often passion fueled-discussions on these forums, I can guess that I'm not alone in this.

Dany wasn't "taken," she was raped. Another rape that the writers of the show invented themselves.

Just like Jaime and Cersei.

I think this is how it goes in the writers' room at GOT headquarters:

D1: "This female character is in serious need of some character development."

D2: "Rape."

D1: "I was thinking the same thing."

D2: "This is groundbreaking stuff we're doing here."

Random Writer 1: "But what about the released WOW chapter, it implies that the character development goes in a different direction than rape."

D&D: "But rape is more compelling. Forget the lack of nuance, especially since Sansa will not get the necessary counselling in this setting, forget all logic and just focus on the shock value, rape is definitely more compelling."

RW1: "But..."

D&D: "We killed Barristan because that guy spoke up, man, we can fire you whenever we want, and brag about it at the next Con or Roundtable. Remember that."

Can there be a zero?

That's what I wanted last week. So I just ended up giving a 1. Same this week. I honestly feel there should be a zero.

Scoring seems strange since this has best written episode of the season and it's more Bryan Cogman than D&D.

For me this was the worst of the season, the worst in a long while. In fact, I wouldn't be shocked to discover that most people scored it higher after finding out who wrote it, and then convincing themselves that some of the more glaring inconsistencies were not all that bad. I would have given it a zero, but that wasn't available. So I gave a 1 and I haven't calmed down enough to write a proper review.

1.

Because 0 is not available.

The inconsistency and character assassination was just more annoying this episode. And random things, like Stannis just walking around Castle Black and running into Sam just so he could tell him to continue reading, just kept happening.

I'm just glad the show will conclude before the books. All the show haters will still be hating even then, but I can't wait to laugh in face of book purists. :)

The trailer for this season showed multiple Harpies in masks closing in on Dany in the pit, so it obviously isn't just one. :lol:

I suppose it's just me then. They seemed to make such a huge deal out of that guy.

Anyway, it was a dream I was hoping was true. :frown5:

Is it just me or did the Harpy die this episode. The guy who was hiding in the wall. I would say yes since it doesn't even seem like we'll get the GG.

I doubt "question him sharply" will be included for three reasons:

• the show cut the shavepate.
  
• Daario said it rather conspicuously in Ep 2.
  
• the execution scene seems to serve as the show version of moral ambiguity scene since it has done something that wasn't there in the books: the children now "hate" their Mhysa i.e. hissing has replaced crowd surfing. The way I see it, as the children question her, we are also meant to do the same. :dunno:
  

Also, the show seems to have cut GG and in this episode the guy whop was killed, the one who was hiding in the wall, was repeatedly identified as the Harpy.

Nobody else other than the Starks do their own executions. To criticize Dany for it is ridiculous. And Bran didn't know the man being executed. Dany did. Of course that would make it hard to watch. The riot scene wasn't even in the same episode as Ned's execution, not sure how it's relevant. Something looked similar to a scene with Joffrey, so what? Your mind jumps to Dany is as bad as Joffrey? Ok.

Even the biggest Dany detractors should be able to be realize Dany is no Joffrey. As usual your hatred of the character is making you irrational.

:agree: Not to mention that she lives in a society in which women like Brienne, those who wield swords, are not a common sight. If she had decided to execute the dude herself we would currently be debating her arrogance since we've never even seen her so much as express desire for the skill i.e. we would still be discussing just how much she screwed up. Damned if she does, damned if she doesn't.

I gave a 9 because of Meereen and The Wall.

Dany needs new speech writers ;)

It seems that way. I recommend Gandhi and MLK.

That was actually my point...

She had the right reasoning, and right idea.... and yet she still managed to screw it up entirely by getting up and making a weak speech, while looking like anything but a strong leader, who upholds justice.

I agree with El Guapo on this, I don't think a "better speech" would have helped at all. What she said was pretty basic, not meant for interpretation. Better speech would not have solved the fundamental problem of the crowd thinking that their Mhysa was turning against them...that's too simplistic and not at all practical.

It kind of goes back to one of her early scenes with the Dothraki and Viserys, where she's begging the Dothraki to not hurt him, rather than acting like a ruler and ordering him released.. She isn't a strong ruler, and continually makes mistakes pretending otherwise. And that's not a complaint, rather it's actually a compliment, as it is actually exactly how her character is supposed to be portrayed right now.

She was still a novice khaleesi there...and Vis had been her elder her entire life, he had always held power over her. That doesn't get erased by a few days of being a khaleesi. That is, she was still working her way through adjusting to the power she had recently gained. But he was still her brother....and she still feared him. Her transition would not have seemed natural otherwise, and we would be debating whether or not she settled into her power too quickly.

Anyway, things I think were well done, or continue to be well done:

Hizdhar - I like that he's a lot more subtle than the books and that he never had the ridiculous hair and mannerisms.

Daario - Then again, I like him in the books as well.

The Wall - Kit is still nailing it this season. I hope Stannis gets fried soon.

Mad Aerys - I'm glad that's out of the way and Dany knows.

Drogon - Awesomely huge and has human-like facial expressions.

Horror:

Dorne, especially Ellaria

Season 1 Arya is back, wandering the streets and killing pigeons

Darth Sansa

Inconsistent Cersei

Luckluster Jaime

Inconsistent Pod and Brienne

Where is Ghost? Where is Ghost? Where is Ghost?

The Best and Worst

-The execution and resulting riot... I didn't recognize the slave from Dany taking Mereen... There was little to no other buildup of him, other than some pissed off young man slave, who managed to get a few lines. I didn't even know he had a name. As such, there was little to no reason to actually care that he got his head chopped off.... That said, it was kind of well done if you ignore the red Star Trek shirt slave... The writing has to move the story towards a point, and that point is further civil unrest in Mereen. I doubt I was the only one who cringed in seeing a scene where Daenarys has a legitimate shot at being an effective ruler, and again,just failed horribly.... Had Daenarys simply gone out in public and said, "We have laws in my city, and Master or Slave, murderers will be punished" and then had the guy's head lopped off, the crowd wouldn't have been in a position to argue, and she would have shown the former slaves and former masters as equals.... Instead, in her quest to do the right thing, and with the same summary of actions, she instead managed to alienate both sides, and become a focal point/symbol of hatred and injustice to both factions. It feels like it was such easy solution, and she managed to effectively turn it into a train wreck with her ineptitude. Like the episode of the Simpsons where Homer is making food for Mr. Burns, and it keeps catching fire via the various cooking methods.... Finally,for the punchline he pours milk into a bowl of cereal, and again... it bursts into flames.... That is Daenarys ruling Mereen, and it's actually one thing the show has nailed, especially in this episode.

I might agree with you if you actually made a suggestion that was "better" than the show's; instead you make the same one...with a different speech she could have said. Unless you're being sarcastic.

Dany's conversation with Barristan was phenomenal and did the legwork of an entire book. Thank you, writers, for expediting this development and simultaneously making both characters a lot more dynamic a lot faster. When Mossador started talking about his father and wanting his life to have meant something, the look on Dany's face was agonizing.

I also liked that a lot.

What I Did Not Like:

The House of the ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ: HOLY. SHIT. No Arya in the first episode. We meet Arya and she goes to the House of the Black and White and Red All Over and… wow… sits there. Why? NO REASON! Literally no reason. Ever given. No reason. At all. But she waits. And it rains. And then it rains more. But she does not go in. Why? Because … ah… that would require the writers to actually move this story along and get to something that mattered.

Instead: A SCENE WE HAVE ALREADY SEEN!!!! That’s right! Arya… in an ally… with a sword… and pigeons!!! ! I remember season 1 too!!!!

Why can’t we go in? Why are we stuck out here where… nothing is happening? You know you have only 8 episodes left, right? And… oh, whatever… its mostly FfC and nothing happened there’re either.

Overall, another clunker of an episode. 0-for-2. Slow, plodding, uninspired. Slow… slow… slow….

The overall impression of the season before it was released was that it was “just as good” as the seasons before and “off books.”

The opposite, sadly, appears to be the case.

:agree:

done

Test complete.

Wow, Booknerd! Amazing. I don't have anything to add either. I am also looking ETA:forward to Part 3.

NVM

Thank you so much for the warm welcome, guys! :) Looking forward to some great discussion.

It's a pleasure.

Greetings round the world to all of the Song of Ice and Fire followers.

What a pleasure it is for me to read all your commentary.

I am DireWolfSpirit and I'm brand new to the forum , so I will be lurking and learning,

hopefully able to get up to speed on how everything works here.

Have been uber impressed with many posters depth and imaginations over the

material thus far and will be commenting more in the near future.

Welcome to the forums, DireWolfSpirit! :cheers: Looking forward to your contributions.

Hello everyone! :)

I just wanted to drop in here and introduce myself. I've been a Song of Ice and Fire fan since (about) 2009. I'll admit the size and scope of the books were daunting to me at the time, so it took quite a while for me to make it through them (even though I was enjoying them immensely). I ended finishing ASOS during the airing of Game of Thrones Season 1 in 2011.

I'm a massive fan of both the books and the television series, and have been itching to have a place to discuss them in-depth. I've lurked and even posted a bit on a certain other GoT-related site, but it's not really the kind of forum atmosphere I like. I have been directed here by a fellow TORN (TheOneRing.Net) forum member, who highly recommended this site and the members here.

I've lurked here for a couple weeks, but have felt the urge to finally register if for no other reason than to gush about the new The World of Ice and Fire book, which I received in the mail Tuesday. It's everything I could have hoped for in such a book, and I've been pouring through it ever since I got it in my hands. :)

I look forward to some great discussion and can't wait to get to know you guys!

BTW, as to my favorite character: In the books, Jon Snow. In the series, Ned Stark (big Sean Bean fan, I can't help it). Of course I love Tyrion, but that would be too easy on my part. ;)

Welcome to the forums! :cheers: Team Jon Snow welcomes you as well. Hope you enjoy it here.

Team Targaryen welcomes you to our awesome camp, Faceless Dude! :cheers:

Greetings fellow creatures!

After lurking around and having my mind blown by some interesting theories and details I've always missed while reading the books, I've finally gotten around to making an account so that I can pester you guys with my questions and weird ideas. ;-)

Asoiaf has been an obsession of mine ever since I've first discovered the show two or three years ago. Since then I've watched it countless times and am currently reading the books for the second time.

Sooo... what else? I don't know... I'm from Germany and I like beer.

Welcome to the forums, faceless dude! :cheers: Looking forward your crazy ideas.Hope you have fun here.

Michelle Fairley(sp) in Resurrection.

:lol:

My catchphrase has prevailed. :smug:

I hail you, my good sir, for that catchphrase. It's a really good one! :thumbsup: