On Boy Kings, Young Lords and the Ruin of Houses

[Lyse Stark]

Too bad he died.

I meant Aegon Blackfyre, not Aegon VI Targaryen.

[Salinda]

I wouldnt call Tywin successful - especially considering the state House Lannister is in currently.

And Ned is probably another exception. He did well during RR - when he couldnt have been more than 17-18(considering Brandon was 20 when he died), yet he screwed up after he got older and more experienced.

He was successful. The decline of House Lannister was because of his death not because of what he did

[Sansa_Stark]

He was successful. The decline of House Lannister was because of his death not because of what he did

The decline of House Lannister rests mostly his kids, especially Cersei.

[rmd]

Tywin and Roose may have been 'successful' leaders of their Houses by your standards, but both have been terrible parents and raised appallingly ill-prepared children with serious psychological issues.

How is that helping the country any, if their heirs were so badly raised (and I blame both of these men for directly contributing to their children's issues, not just by neglect but by poor parenting decisions) as to be unfit to continue their legacy?

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

Without Tywin Lannister, House Lannister wouldn't exist or they wouldn't have much power, since Reyne-Tarbeck Rebellion would've decimated their power. House Lannister's fall is in Cersei's and Jaime's Hand.

[Sansa_Stark]

Tywin and Roose may have been 'successful' leaders of their Houses by your standards, but both have been terrible parents and raised appallingly ill-prepared children with serious psychological issues.

How is that helping the country any, if their heirs were so badly raised (and I blame both of these men for directly contributing to their children's issues, not just by neglect but by poor parenting decisions) as to be unfit to continue their legacy?

Ramsay was never meant to be Roose's heir originally. He had Domeric, and Ramsay murdered him most like.

Domeric was fostered at the Vale with the Belmores and paged with Barbarey Dustin. I don't recall hearing anything particularly bad about him.

[rmd]

From his interactions with Ramsay though, he doesn't at all seem like a good father.

I guess raping someone isn't a great start to the whole parenting journey.

[Darkbringer]

Tywin and Roose may have been 'successful' leaders of their Houses by your standards, but both have been terrible parents and raised appallingly ill-prepared children with serious psychological issues.

How is that helping the country any, if their heirs were so badly raised (and I both of these men for directly contributing to their children's issues, not just by neglect but by poor parenting decisions) as to be unfit to continue their legacy?

Well that is Tywin's great fault really, isn't it? He is a crappy father. All of his children are quite immature, in different ways, and he has to be to blame for that. He wanted to secure his legacy, and while he may have been a single father, he had all the resources in the world. Notice that none of the Lannister children were fostered out. Why not? Maybe Tywin was holding on too tight, didn't trust anyone else with his legacy. As to Tywin himself, he won the War of Five Kings convincingly, yet his biggest flaw came back to bite him with a totally unforeseeable death. Otherwise he pretty much had the realm under control, for the time. But the main point is, that having seasoned Matriarchs or Patriarchs in charge gave families like the Tyrells and Lannisters a huge advantage. The whole seven kingdoms were petrified of Tywin, including his ratbag children.

[Darkbringer]

Ramsay was never meant to be Roose's heir originally. He had Domeric, and Ramsay murdered him most like.

Domeric was fostered at the Vale with the Belmores and paged with Barbarey Dustin. I don't recall hearing anything particularly bad about him.

I agree, Domeric seemed OK.

[Sansa_Stark]

From his interactions with Ramsay though, he doesn't at all seem like a good father.

I guess raping someone isn't a great start to the whole parenting journey.

"Get the keys and remove those chains from him, before you make me rue the day I raped your mother."

Whenever I first saw this, I had to clean my glasses, and reread it twice over just to make sure I saw it correctly.

[rmd]

I know, couldn't he have lied about it? Geez Roose.

[lulu_pix]

What about the little bulwer girl? isnt she the head of bulwer since her father died? and she is in Kings Landing with the tyrells, Doesnt look like shese gonna be alive by the end of the series.

[Darkbringer]

What about the little bulwer girl? isnt she the head of bulwer since her father died? and she is in Kings Landing with the tyrells, Doesnt look like shese gonna be alive by the end of the series.

I wouldn't be so sure, her mum is a Tyrell, and the Tyrells have a habit of surviving. But obviously that is a very precarious position for her house to be in, but if the Tyrells look after her she may be ok.

[lulu_pix]

I wouldn't be so sure, her mum is a Tyrell, and the Tyrells have a habit of surviving. But obviously that is a very precarious position for her house to be in, but if the Tyrells look after her she may be ok.

yea but what i mean is that the Tyrells themselves might not survive ADWD 2.0 or The sack of kings landing 2.0 or posiibly Cersei burning Kings Landing herself to the ground or Ungregor

[Darkbringer]

yea but what i mean is that the Tyrells themselves might not survive ADWD 2.0 or The sack of kings landing 2.0 or posiibly Cersei burning Kings Landing herself to the ground or Ungregor

Yeah possibly, who knows? But on the balance of things, if you have multiple kids I say it is better for the kids and probably safer to foster at least one out at any one time. Builds alliances too.

[Darkbringer]

Also, as aside note, compare Ned to his kids. Due to Ned and Bob being like sons to Jon Arryn, between them all they could raise almost half the damn kingdom when Bob and Ned got in trouble. Compare that with how isolated the Stark children are. Its only Ned's marriage to Cat that gives Robb the riverlands.

[lulu_pix]

Also, as aside note, compare Ned to his kids. Due to Ned and Bob being like sons to Jon Arryn, between them all they could raise almost half the damn kingdom when Bob and Ned got in trouble. Compare that with how isolated the Stark children are. Its only Ned's marriage to Cat that gives Robb the riverlands.

True I also dont understand why Ned didnt forster one of his sons maybe Bran with Stannis, WoFK wouldve been different had stanis fosterd one of the stark kids

[Sansa_Stark]

True I also dont understand why Ned didnt forster one of his sons maybe Bran with Stannis, WoFK wouldve been different had stanis fosterd one of the stark kids

He was going to send Bran to KL. He hinself was 8 when sent to the Vale

[Pod The Impaler]

I think a young lord or lady (or king or queen) has points both for and against. The young are seldom hardened enough or cunning enough or wise enough to rule effectively, yet the young also have that heroic and driven quality that can make them formidable warriors or rulers. However, even if they have a remarkable run of success and have the natural talent for the job, they will still make "rookie mistakes", particularly when emotion is involved.

For example:

We see Sansa has all the qualities on paper to be a peerless courtly lady, but her blind infatuation with Joffrey wrecks things. She is 11 though, and for her such infatuations are the whole world; she has no real conception of bloody conflict or malicious deceit. She learns about it the hard way, but even by the end of AFFC we see she is still not as worldly-wise as she might need to become.

Arya Stark is a remarkably advanced child, with a ferocious and commanding quality (the wolf's blood) and a sharp sense of idealism. Yet, for all her intelligence and instinct and inner strength, you still see moments where she thinks like a child, because she still is one. She is not a typical child, but rather a remarkable one - yet the need for her to grow up is still there.

However, as a general rule, the reason young lords (and ladies) are the bane of a house may not only have to do with the people themselves. It also matters how other people react to them.

In politics and war and some other things, unscrupulous people decide what to do based on what they can get away with. People like this see a young ruler as having a weakness, as someone easily defeated or tricked; or by natural inclination, people are reluctant to treat someone significantly younger them as an authority figure.

The mere perception of weakness is often enough to encourage the sort or treachery or aggression or insubordination that undermines the young ruler - and since power resides where people believe it resides, this undermining is a real danger.

Tommen is a "sweet boy" everyone says, and despite his young age, mght make a decent ruler one day. His positive qualities seem to be bravery, caring about people, and a genuine interest in getting involved and being a good king. But aside from his still approaching his role as a child would, you also see people manipulate and infantilize him. Because he is a king and not a prince anymore, it interferes with his learning to a become a proper man. He's married to a full-grown woman, but cannot really be her husband in the ways that matter. His own relatives who might raise him instead have been fighting over being regent because that is where the power really lies, not just to rule the realm in matters a child cannot understand, but also because they have radically different ideas about how to make him into a king who understands it.

Another case to look at is Jon Snow. He's proven a brave warrior and able commander up to a point, but his youth helps put him at odds with his subordinates. Bowen Marsh views him as soft-hearted and naive. Janos Slynt simply will not defer to or take orders from him at all, and Jon ends up having to execute a man to prove that the Lord Commander is indeed a man whose orders must be obeyed. Stannis only accepts advice from Jon very grudgingly. The outside world beyond the wall seems to consider Jon Snow only as Eddard Stark's boy, and never mind the Night's Watch and its oaths.

Lastly, look at Daenerys. She is a fairly fierce woman and assertive ruler, but she came to recognize that people around her only see a girl, not a queen. She has learned to both mock it and use it to her advantage, as seen whenever she says "I am but a young girl and do not understand such things, but ...". However, it is a reaction to a very real problem - that men do not take seriously a "young girl" as a ruler, because she is a girl and because she is young. Every man thinks of bedding her and thus taking her power for himself. Even the man who perhaps love her genuinely are always trying to "save" her; Jorah wants to be her loving protector / companion, and even Barristan who is experienced enough to know better finds himself holding back information that might hurt her feelings (though this girl has already laid waste to cities and slaughtered enemies in wrath). Perhaps Dany is a true queen in the making, but there are always those who see her - whether out of good intentions or bad ones - as someone vulnerable.

I wouldnt call Tywin successful - especially considering the state House Lannister is in currently.

And Ned is probably another exception. He did well during RR - when he couldnt have been more than 17-18(considering Brandon was 20 when he died), yet he screwed up after he got older and more experienced.

I would say this is a major point to consider in opposition to the theory.

Ned, Robert, Roose, and Stannis were all boys - not far off the age of Robb, and Jon and Dany - when Robert's Rebellion happenned, and they turned out fairly successful as lords.

Robert perhaps the least, yet he was king for 15 years or so, and his younger years compare much more favourably to his older ones.

Tywin was a "success" at a very young age, being lord and Hand for quite a while; however, considering his general shittiness as an older man, either the expected process was reversed or else he was just an asshole all along.

Aerys II is remembered by Barristan as having started out with promise, but then got worse over time until he was a total wreck by the time he was overthrown; however, Barristan seems to be reluctant to think the worst of people, and Aerys may have always been mad and evil.

[Pod The Impaler]

I guess raping someone isn't a great start to the whole parenting journey.

Winner of the Understatement of the Month award. :lol: