Hajk Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Some posters have raised the issue of how she treated baby Tyrion. We have here the report of Oberyn Martell, who is certainly not well disposed towards her. But even if we accept it as true, keep in mind that it is not unheard of older children to feel great hostility towards newborns when they feel that they are taking their parent's love away from them. Tyrion had taken away her mother's love in the most drastic way. Is he rationally to blame? No. But remember Cersei's own age at the time. We argue for many characters that their age gives an excuse. Why not then, for Cersei? The Mellara incident, while possible, remains unconfirmed. But what we do know for sure is that despite her fear for decades that he will ruin her she did not kill Tyrion even though many opportunities would have shown up in their childhood when she could have gotten away with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dany Girl Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Agree. Useless to argue with Cersei's fans. They're that way.Hey, I'm a huge Cersei fan and I in no way believe her to be a good person. I do think she loved her kids as much as a narcissist is able to love another person, so that is a good point in her favor I guess. But she's pretty much a monster in every conceivable way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
complexphoenix Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Exactly. Joffreys madness came from the incest, not her mothering. Tommen and Myrcella turned out normal because Cersei isn't a terrible mother. Shes not a good one either. Just an average one imo Joffrey is the way he is because of a mix of nature and nurture. He's inherited all of Cersei's pride, spitefulness, and cruelty, and all Jaime's particular form of stupidity. He also had an ostensible father who modeled behaviors of massive self-indulgence and a mother who filled his head with the notion that being king was all privilege and no responsibility. Tommen and Myrcella turned out better because the genetic dice rolled different for them - they inherited Jaime's nature. Tommen in particular is Jaime's son, just so - obedient and tractable and perfectly willing to take orders and never bother to think for himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
complexphoenix Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Some posters have raised the issue of how she treated baby Tyrion. We have here the report of Oberyn Martell, who is certainly not well disposed towards her. We have her own admission as well. She hurt him after reading about how Baelor the Blessed locked up his sisters for being beautiful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hajk Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 When it comes to political ruthlessness, we must remember that her role model was Tywin (of Castamere fame). Of course Tywin never prepared her on how to rule. So she took her best understanding of how he would do something. Her suspicions of the Tyrells are correct. And her need to rationalize away any cruelty that she has to engage in rather than just accept it does show that there is a moral center in there that she has to constantly struggle with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dany Girl Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 where is this ever said?It's how things are in their world. Yes, she had contact with them, and yes she loved them, but the majority of their education would come from maesters and septas. Same thing happens in WF with the Stark kids. It's apparent in Arya's arc how that effects her. Their Septa was a bitch who treated her poorly and told her how much she failed to live up to standards and in return Arya questions if her mother will still love her. Fact is in noble midevil societies parents had very little involvement in the day to day educations of their children. Especially a Queen. She has duties to perform, so hhr children probably only spend meals together and maybe an hour hear or there. It's not an attack on Cersei, just the way the society functions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasporio Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Hey, I'm a huge Cersei fan and I in no way believe her to be a good person. I do think she loved her kids as much as a narcissist is able to love another person, so that is a good point in her favor I guess. But she's pretty much a monster in every conceivable way. Apologies, wasnt toward you. You're not a belieber .dont want to hurt any belieber... no i dont care about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hajk Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 We have her own admission as well. She hurt him after reading about how Baelor the Blessed locked up his sisters for being beautiful. Okay. The argument is still the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hajk Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 It's how things are in their world. Yes, she had contact with them, and yes she loved them, but the majority of their education would come from maesters and septas. Same thing happens in WF with the Stark kids. It's apparent in Arya's arc how that effects her. Their Septa was a bitch who treated her poorly and told her how much she failed to live up to standards and in return Arya questions if her mother will still love her. Fact is in noble midevil societies parents had very little involvement in the day to day educations of their children. Especially a Queen. She has duties to perform, so hhr children probably only spend meals together and maybe an hour hear or there. It's not an attack on Cersei, just the way the society functions. That's an awful lot of assumption about how things happen here. We all see Ned and Cat as good loving parents. Cersei is clearly not that good, but there is little reason to hold that she is very bad either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dany Girl Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Apologies, wasnt toward you. You're not a belieber .dont want to hurt any belieber... no i dont care about.I know you weren't trying to make offense, just making it known that not all Cersei fans are beliebers (I especially don't fall into that category, that douche needs to get kicked in the nuts repeatedly) nor do we try to white wash her. I personally enjoy her because she's just so Bond villan bad, and that makes her entertaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
complexphoenix Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 She was kind to Sansa. Even in her thoughts she remembers. And she was going to find her a good marriage She had Sansa's direwolf killed for essentially no reason but pure spite. She told Sansa that Ser Ilyn was going to kill her if they lost the Battle of the Blackwater. She raised no objection at all to Sansa being married to an ugly dwarf. In her thoughts she is flattering herself. She's delusional. Taking what she says about herself in her POV chapters is nuts. She is willfully misremembering what actually happened to make herself look better than she is and the people she hates look worse than they are, to convince herself that she's a good person when she's evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasporio Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Im pretty much ignorant about but nature and nurture would means experience, state of mind, and upbringing no ?Cersei had a wealthy upbringing but her father was cold and probably not a scholar.She took his domineering behaviour, treated others but herself as dust.Lack empathy and fear. Could be genetic.Free will. Seems important to me. She choose to be what she is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dany Girl Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 That's an awful lot of assumption about how things happen here. We all see Ned and Cat as good loving parents. Cersei is clearly not that good, but there is little reason to hold that she is very bad either.It's really not that big of an assumption, how often do we see Cersei with her kids? Usually during meal times. And as I've repeatedly said, she does love her kids. Just as Cat and Ned loved their kids. But they were not the people in charge of their day to day education. Even in WF Myrcella is sitting in on sewing lessons with the Stark's septa, no Cersei in sight. This is not an insult on anyone's parenting, just a statement of fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
complexphoenix Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 That's an awful lot of assumption about how things happen here. We all see Ned and Cat as good loving parents. Cersei is clearly not that good, but there is little reason to hold that she is very bad either. The one time Tommen disagrees with her, she makes him beat another young boy bloody as punishment. I'd call that abusive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hajk Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 She raised no objection at all to Sansa being married to an ugly dwarf. This was made politically necessary to thwart another Tyrell plot, with Tywin's support behind it. Until then there was no push for it. It was political expediency. This didn't make her unkind. It just made her pragmatic. In her thoughts she is flattering herself. She's delusional. Taking what she says about herself in her POV chapters is nuts. She is willfully misremembering what actually happened to make herself look better than she is and the people she hates look worse than they are, to convince herself that she's a good person when she's evil. I think her own POV is pretty good evidence of her internal thoughts. Forcing it into this situation of her purposefully misremembering etc. seems fanciful. There is no real evidence for it beyond a desire to downplay anything that may look a hated character look better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
complexphoenix Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 She loves her children as extensions of herself, not as separate people. She doesn't really care about their feelings or wants, only about what she wants for them. In that, she's very like her father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasporio Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 I know you weren't trying to make offense, just making it known that not all Cersei fans are beliebers (I especially don't fall into that category, that douche needs to get kicked in the nuts repeatedly) nor do we try to white wash her. I personally enjoy her because she's just so Bond villan bad, and that makes her entertaining. Big fan of Cersei too, because she's just so freaking evil, and unwise. I suspect GRRM made her as the reversed dumb blonde stereotype. Just cant bear douchebags who praise her as clever, motherly , charismatic. And Bieber deserves a great old one to crush his tiny empty head... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dany Girl Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Big fan of Cersei too, because she's just so freaking evil, and unwise. I suspect GRRM made her as the reversed dumb blonde stereotype.Just cant bear douchebags who praise her as clever, motherly , charismatic.And Bieber deserves a great old one to crush his tiny empty head...Agree :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hajk Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 The one time Tommen disagrees with her, she makes him beat another young boy bloody as punishment. I'd call that abusive. Abuse is different than it is today. Beating children was the regular thing to do less than a century ago in our world, with hardly anyone blinking an eye. It was even considered good parenting. That is sad but true. Our current attitudes are very recent (and very local, just the modern West in fact). But Tommen himself generally does not treat her like she has been negligent or monstrous. He still asks after her, boasts to her, wants to show her his kittens. She wants to avoid letting him under too much Tyrell influence, a concern that is actually legitimate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hajk Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 It's really not that big of an assumption, how often do we see Cersei with her kids? Usually during meal times. And as I've repeatedly said, she does love her kids. Just as Cat and Ned loved their kids. But they were not the people in charge of their day to day education. Even in WF Myrcella is sitting in on sewing lessons with the Stark's septa, no Cersei in sight. This is not an insult on anyone's parenting, just a statement of fact. I do not think we can hold that off screen interaction between parents and children is minimal. Despite what you say, all the Stark children love and are loved by their parents. And the influence of Ned and Cat is clear in all of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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