Let's defend Cersei in this topic

[Dany Girl]

Cersei's pride stopped her from feeling any happiness in her marriage. She is very much comparable to Cat. They were both in arranged marriages. Cersei's first was Rhaegar which didn't work. Cat's first was Brandon who died. So they both ended up with these two friends they didn't like much. And Both their husbands were infidel; Robert called Lyanna and Ned brought Jon home, from then on, Cersei's reaction was very different. She tried to avenge her pride by being in return infidel and raise her own children as heirs to the throne as Robert's children. While Cat Built her marriage only held a grudge against Jon. I think Cersei's life was not perfect but she is responsible for her choices.

I completely concur. Cersei and Cat both ended up with the "consultation prize" but while we don't know how Cat felt about Ned at first, we do know that Cersei was more than willing to be married to Robert. She even says he was handsome and gallant or something like that... until he said Lyanna. Then, instead of letting it go and trying to make the relationship work, she turns into an evil bitch. I do believe Robert entered the union with good intentions, even though he wasn't over Lyanna, but her nastiness turned him into the pathetic excuse of a man we know.

[MegaAIP]

Cersei you can't defend. Not only is she power hungry, willing to kill, but also bumbling all along the way.

[Hajk]

Cercei is more like Tywin or Littlefinger, except bad at doing what they do. She differs from the Ramsays in that she delegates most of her atrocities or lets the machinations of society take care of her problems for her even though it's her full intent to take place. Add to the fact she is reckless, has been impulsive, paranoid, and lacking subtlety it makes her potentially more dangerous than Tywin if she had the tools he had to accomplish what she wants done. She's far less discretionary in how she uses some of her more awful techniques than Tywin. Her vindictiveness is one of her most apparent traits, and I think she does kind of enjoy the pain of those suffering she wants revenge on. Tywin is definitely vindictive too, but with Tywin it appears he is more concerned with maintaining respect, fear, reputation, or reaching a particular strategic goal and seems more indifferent to the pain of those he wants revenge on. Cersei seems to relish in the pain or perhaps from the power she feels from being able to inflict it and this seems to play more of a part in her decisions than for Tywin's. In that way she is probably more similar to Ramsay than to Tywin.

I think the only reason one would think so of Tywin is that we don't have his inner POV. We have POV's from all of Tywin's children and Tyrion is as much of a vindictive monster as Cersei ever is (and can be quite callous to the suffering of others as well). jaime, once again, the only one who is politically uninvolved, and happened to have better role models (e.g. Arthur Dayne) at a time in his life is better. But given how these two view politics, there is litttle reason to suspect that Tywin is any better. Does she enjoy the pain of those she gets revenge on? In some cases perhaps. But I would hardly judge her as evil. Far too many ordinary people will also enjoy a successful revenge (which is exactly enjoying the pain of the other in revenge). That is part of what revenge is about. Cersei is said not to forgive slights and people have related the same of Tywin.

The difference is that while she tries to be as adept a player as Tywin, she was never trained for it, and all her family (Jaime, Kevan) abandoned her when she needed them (i.e. when she really had power for the first time). So she muddled and blundered along. If she were like Ramsay she would actively participate in Qyburn's activities and gleefully enjoy them rather than not try to think of them. In this she's probably more like Robb Stark who knew that Theon was being flayed by Ramsay but did little to stop it or punish him for it. He probably just tried to put it out of his mind.

Even Catelyn is not above desiring revenge:

"Did Ramsay mention Theon Greyjoy?" Robb demanded. "Was he slain as well, or did he flee?"

Roose Bolton removed a ragged strip of leather from the pouch at his belt. "My son sent this with his letter."

Ser Wendel turned his fat face away. Robin Flint and Smalljon Umber exchanged a look, and the Greatjon snorted like a bull. "Is that . . . skin?" said Robb.

"The skin from the little finger of Theon Greyjoy's left hand. My son is cruel, I confess it. And yet . . . what is a little skin, against the lives of two young princes? You were their mother, my lady. May I offer you this . . . small token of revenge?"

Part of Catelyn wanted to clutch the grisly trophy to her heart, but she made herself resist. "Put it away. Please."

"Flaying Theon will not bring my brothers back," Robb said. "I want his head, not his skin."

"He is Balon Greyjoy's only living son," Lord Bolton said softly, as if they had forgotten, "and now rightful King of the Iron Islands. A captive king has great value as a hostage."

"Hostage?" The word raised Catelyn's hackles. Hostages were oft exchanged. "Lord Bolton, I hope you are not suggesting that we free the man who killed my sons."

"Whoever wins the Seastone Chair will want Theon Greyjoy dead," Bolton pointed out. "Even in chains, he has a better claim than any of his uncles. Hold him, I say, and demand concessions from the ironborn as the price of his execution."

Of course later we have Wyman Manderly serving cannibal pies etc. in revenge. Cersei has never done this.

She probably gets off easy and has defenders because she's one of the few outright villains who have POVs and has been amusing at times.

I suspect it is the opposite. It is because we have her POV's that people seem to think worse of her than some of the other players.

[Hajk]

there are no others, I'm guessing because she is almost indefensible.

And even I'm trolling/not being serious half the time.

[Kanye Westeros]

I suspect it is the opposite. It is because we have her POV's that people seem to think worse of her than some of the other players.

I suspect that you are some combination of insanely biased, disingenuous, or some combination where it's really not worth arguing anymore.

[Hajk]

I suspect that you are some combination of insanely biased, disingenuous, or some combination where it's really not worth arguing anymore.

There is such a thing as difference of opinion. There is also such a thing as polite discussion. This is not what this is.

[Hajk]

I completely concur. Cersei and Cat both ended up with the "consultation prize" but while we don't know how Cat felt about Ned at first, we do know that Cersei was more than willing to be married to Robert. She even says he was handsome and gallant or something like that... until he said Lyanna. Then, instead of letting it go and trying to make the relationship work, she turns into an evil bitch. I do believe Robert entered the union with good intentions, even though he wasn't over Lyanna, but her nastiness turned him into the pathetic excuse of a man we know.

Or the reverse. Even Lyanna knew that Robert wouldn't be a good husband. Cat actually got a good honorable man who was probably a good faithful husband as well (apart from the one Jon Snow issue), and from the looks of it never even looked at another woman. Cersei had a bad upbringing. But could she have become a much better person if she had been wedded to a good man? Perhaps. There is no real way to tell.

[Wmarshal]

Or the reverse. Even Lyanna knew that Robert wouldn't be a good husband. Cat actually got a good honorable man who was probably a good faithful husband as well (apart from the one Jon Snow issue), and from the looks of it never even looked at another woman. Cersei had a bad upbringing. But could she have become a much better person if she had been wedded to a good man? Perhaps. There is no real way to tell.

Jaime had the same upbringing and only got messed up because of Cersei. From what we can see Tywin raised her like any other high born girl. Catelyn was ay okay and her dad murdered a quarter of his bannermen's smallfolk.

[Cas Stark]

Cersei was basically sold as a brood mare. That does explain why she turned out as she did.

Like every other high born girl in Westeros. But you don't see them pushing girls down wells, abusing their baby brother, engaging in incest with their twin...do you?

Cersei Lannister: bad seed.

[Hajk]

Tyrion employs people who would do monstrous things if he ordered it, but he doesn't order it. Cersei does. Buying Qyburn's loyalty with test subjects is no excuse, because there are a whole bunch of better ways to get and maintain loyalty, including those used by her own father, but the only methods Cersei seems capable of using are sex and bribery. She screws up almost all of her other such relationships by being a jerk for no good reason.

Let us not confuse two issues. I am not arguing that Cersei is the most capable politician. I am arguing that she is not any more evil than many characters who get off more easy just because they may be more capable politicians but are morally as bad (if not worse) than her. It is not her political genius I am defending. Nor am I arguing that she is the best at maintaining familial relationships. The whole Lannister gene-pool is screwed up in that regards and all the Lannister children seem to want to kill each other right now (and Tyrion killed off Tywin already). Sex and bribery are actually more humane than some of the methods her father used. That they didn't work out as well is unfortunate.

Just because Sansa is her enemy doesn't justify psychologically tormenting her for no reason. Sansa is her prisoner and is at her mercy, therefore she has a responsibility to treat her gently unless she has cause. She doesn't have cause, the night of the Blackwater, she's just being a jerk for no reason.

Once again, I agree that she can be a bitch. Especially when she has a enemy hostage, and thinks that she and her children may die soon. It doesn't bring out her most charitable side. It didn't bring out Catelyn's most charitable side either (Jinglebell?). Tyrion is quite capable of being an ass as well, even to put up a front:

His tone was calm, flat, uncaring; he'd reached for his father's voice, and found it. "Whatever happens to her happens to Tommen as well, and that includes the beatings and rapes." If she thinks me such a monster, I'll play the part for her.

Cersei had not expected that. "You would not dare."

Tyrion made himself smile, slow and cold. Green and black, his eyes laughed at her. "Dare? I'll do it myself."

His sister's hand flashed at his face, but he caught her wrist and bent it back until she cried out. Osfryd moved to her rescue. "One more step and I'll break her arm," the dwarf warned him. The man stopped. "You remember when I said you'd never hit me again, Cersei?" He shoved her to the floor and turned back to the Kettleblacks.

These folks are quite happy to appear the monster even when they are not. Jaime has been stewing in his own silent pride being known as a Kingslayer rather than ever telling the truth as well.

You're also ignoring Falyse Stokeworth. Falyse was NOT an enemy of Cersei, but she gave her to Qyburn just because she was annoying.

Falyse was not an enemy, but she was not handed over just for being annoying. Cersei needed her dead. It was just that a kinder method could have been chosen.

Perhaps you might wed Moon Boy, Cersei almost said. He is nigh as big a fool as your late husband. She could not risk a war on the very doorstep of King's Landing, not now. "The silent sisters are always glad to welcome widows," she said. "Theirs is a serene life, a life of prayer and contemplation and good works. They bring solace to the living and peace to the dead." And they do not talk. She could not have the woman running about the Seven Kingdoms spreading dangerous tales.

Falyse was deaf to good sense. "All we did, we did in service to Your Grace. Proud to Be Faithful. You said . . ."

"I recall." Cersei forced a smile. "You shall stay here with us, my lady, until such time as we find a way to win your castle back. Let me pour you another cup of wine. It will help you sleep. You are weary and sick of heart, that's plain to see. My poor dear Falyse. That's it, drink up."

As her guest was working on the flagon, Cersei went to the door and called her maids. She told Dorcas to find Lord Qyburn for her and bring him here at once. Jocelyn Swyft she dispatched to the kitchens. "Bring bread and cheese, a meat pie and some apples. And wine. We have a thirst."

[Hajk]

Jaime had the same upbringing and only got messed up because of Cersei. From what we can see Tywin raised her like any other high born girl. Catelyn was ay okay and her dad murdered a quarter of his bannermen's smallfolk.

Jaime also had the benefit of being in the company of better men at an impressionable age (men like Arthur Dayne). And Cat actually married a good man. Tywin was generous with his money, but other than that he seems to have left all his children really wanting in the affection department. And all of them have sought it in strange places.

[Hajk]

C'mon, now. Poor Cersei is everybody's whipping boy, when she's actually a model citizen.

• She gives generous amounts to science and contributes to the advance of medicine through her support of Qyburn
• She helped ensure Loras Tyrell would earn his place in the history books by sending him to Dragonstone
• She let Jaime use his knowledge of battle and apparently great negotiating skills by sending him out to the field instead of selfishly keeping him in KL
• She was kind to Robert by making sure he never found out the children weren't his. Saved the old boy all sorts of heartache.
• She generously allowed the Blue Bard one good eye to see with
• As others have mentioned, giving Aurane Waters those ships is just a standout among generous acts
• She's helping Tommen understand that he has responsibilities and that there are repercussions for his actions. I mean, what good mother would not ensure her children learned that type of lesson?

  And this is just a sampling of the many, many caring and truly exemplary things she has done for individuals and the Realm. I daresay she is a better servant to the 7K than Varys!

LOL that was funny!

[Wmarshal]

Jaime also had the benefit of being in the company of better men at an impressionable age (men like Arthur Dayne). And Cat actually married a good man. Tywin was generous with his money, but other than that he seems to have left all his children really wanting in the affection department. And all of them have sought it in strange places.

Cersei murder someone pry to marrying Robert and been banging her brother the day of the wedding. Jaime only hanging out with Arthur for like half a year. Cersei had her Aunt and uncles and Tywin was a great lord to learn from. She just did not pay attention in the never kill those you need apartment.

[Wmarshal]

Let us not confuse two issues. I am not arguing that Cersei is the most capable politician. I am arguing that she is not any more evil than many characters who get off more easy just because they may be more capable politicians but are morally as bad (if not worse) than her. It is not her political genius I am defending. Nor am I arguing that she is the best at maintaining familial relationships. The whole Lannister gene-pool is screwed up in that regards and all the Lannister children seem to want to kill each other right now (and Tyrion killed off Tywin already). Sex and bribery are actually more humane than some of the methods her father used. That they didn't work out as well is unfortunate.

Once again, I agree that she can be a bitch. Especially when she has a enemy hostage, and thinks that she and her children may die soon. It doesn't bring out her most charitable side. It didn't bring out Catelyn's most charitable side either (Jinglebell?). Tyrion is quite capable of being an ass as well, even to put up a front:

These folks are quite happy to appear the monster even when they are not. Jaime has been stewing in his own silent pride being known as a Kingslayer rather than ever telling the truth as well.

Falyse was not an enemy, but she was not handed over just for being annoying. Cersei needed her dead. It was just that a kinder method could have been chosen.

Bronn was a up jump knight who just killed a knight of renown. no one would had said anything if he died.

[Hajk]

Bronn was a up jump knight who just killed a knight of renown. no one would had said anything if he died.

That may be your judgement. But I just provided the quote to show how Cersei saw the situation. It was more than Bronn. She feared the rumors. She feared the greater violence, i.e. a 'war on the doorstep' etc.

Cersei murder someone pry to marrying Robert and been banging her brother the day of the wedding. Jaime only hanging out with Arthur for like half a year. Cersei had her Aunt and uncles and Tywin was a great lord to learn from. She just did not pay attention in the never kill those you need apartment.

The Melara case is not confirmed.

Jaime still idolized Arthur and wanted to be like him.

Tywin never trained her to rule, so she just understood what she could from the sidelines.

[Wmarshal]

That may be your judgement. But I just provided the quote to show how Cersei saw the situation. It was more than Bronn. She feared the rumors. She feared the greater violence, i.e. a 'war on the doorstep' etc.

The Melara case is not confirmed.

Jaime still idolized Arthur and wanted to be like him.

Tywin never trained her to rule, so she just understood what she could from the sidelines.

By who ? You just proving she is insane. Again Bronn just killed a knight of renown with trickery that is cause to kill him not Falyse , Falyse had the better plan.

[Hajk]

By who ? You just proving she is insane. Again Bronn just killed a knight of renown with trickery that is cause to kill him not Falyse , Falyse had the better plan.

No I am not. Our information is not comprehensive.

[Sword of the Morgan]

I think she is pretty evil, and always has been. She probably threw her childhood friend down a well to cover her tracks. She's still doing the same kind of things. She loves her children, but that doesn't make her exempt from being evil. It's her one redeeming quality, that and her cheekbones.

[Jasta11]

Did all the Cersei defenders leave this board or something???

They didn't.

They never existed in the first place.

[Hajk]

I think she is pretty evil, and always has been. She probably threw her childhood friend down a well to cover her tracks. She's still doing the same kind of things. She loves her children, but that doesn't make her exempt from being evil. It's her one redeeming quality, that and her cheekbones.

Well thanks for at least conceding that she loves her children. Even that is an issue for some. Of course no one asks if Robb truly loved his sisters (even though he could have gotten them back by exchanging Jaime, but no, the war was more important), or not.

Did all the Cersei defenders leave this board or something???

Mine was the last post for some time.

They didn't.

They never existed in the first place.

Then how did this thread get so long?