Let's defend Cersei in this topic

[The Marquis de Leech]

She never had the slightest respect for Robert or their marriage as evidenced by having sex with her brother on their wedding day.

Why the hell should she respect Robert or their marriage? She was forced into it against her will, with control of her own body being denied to her. And that's even before considering the way Robert treated her.

[Black Things]

Her treatment of baby Tyrion is perhaps the biggest most pronounced statement of how evil she is so the core. How can you really be that cruel to an infant? I'm sure many of you who defend her have had baby siblings before and even if either of you are incredibly evil human beings would never think of tormenting them because your mother died giving birth to them.

Cersei is bad so deep down inside.

Why the hell should she respect Robert or their marriage? She was forced into it against her will, with control of her own body being denied to her. And that's even before considering the way Robert treated her.

[Gneisenau]

There was a case in the USA where a women avoided jail time because she was too pretty for it, so maybe we could apply it to Cersei too ?

[sapphire_lion]

Why the hell should she respect Robert or their marriage? She was forced into it against her will, with control of her own body being denied to her. And that's even before considering the way Robert treated her.

Cersei wanted to marry Robert. She wanted to be Queen and thought he was handsome.

There was a case in the USA where a women avoided jail time because she was too pretty for it, so maybe we could apply it to Cersei too ?

Post-ADWD Cersei is all saggy, has a beer gut, is bald, and has rubbed her skin pink from taking too many shame baths. I don't think this defense will work.

ETA: Poor Cersei. I would actually feel sorry for her if she hadn't had all those innocent people killed and/or tortured. It's the torturing/killing babies thing that really puts her in the no sympathy zone for me.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Why the hell should she respect Robert or their marriage? She was forced into it against her will, with control of her own body being denied to her. And that's even before considering the way Robert treated her.

Any trace of Cersei having any objection against the marriage beforehand? Any "no, papa, I don't want to marry Robert"? Or is she just rewriting history post factum, because it didn't work out perfectly for her, so she needs to assign the blame to everyone else?

[The Killer Snark]

She's a child murderer, orders innocent people tortured to death (which does make her as bad in certain ways as Gregor and Ramsay), killed her 'friend' when she was a young girl, exhibits every single symptom of narcissistic sociopathy, has always hated her brother, Tyrion, for no reason, and only loved Jaime because he reminded her of herself. Cersei was an awful person before she got married to Robert, and merely being flung into a really bad marriage with a bullying boor won't make anyone turn out like Cersei unless they were already inclined that way.

[Hajk]

The Tyrion baby thing has come up again. I don't find this to be such a heavy proof against her. To quote what I said earlier:

keep in mind that it is not unheard of older children to feel great hostility towards newborns when they feel that they are taking their parent's love away from them. Tyrion had taken away her mother's love in the most drastic way. Is he rationally to blame? No. But remember Cersei's own age at the time. We argue for many characters that their age gives an excuse. Why not then, for Cersei?

Nope. The Melara incident is fair game.

She's not showing repressed memories or guilt from not saving her, she's still angry and feels betrayed that Melara DARED to have the hots for Jaime. Melara "accidentally fell down the well" the same way her servants "shrank" her dresses.

It is just an inference that many have made. There is no direct confirmation anywhere and falling down accidentally remains possible. A cynical interpretation about a character's motives does not count as evidence of actual guilt.

has always hated her brother, Tyrion, for no reason, and only loved Jaime because he reminded her of herself.

She has always believed that Tyrion will kill and destroy her. That is not 'no reason'. You may not find acting under the influence of a prophecy so rational, but in this world many have done it (e.g. Rhaegar). As to why she loved Jaime, there is no real way to say that she only loved him because of this.

She's a child murderer, orders innocent people tortured to death (which does make her as bad in certain ways as Gregor and Ramsay)

No those guys carry out the deeds themselves, with Ramsay taking great pleasure in them. This puts her in a category similar to Tywin (who ordered the elimination of the Targaryen children and the sacking of the city to show his loyalty to Robert).

Post-ADWD Cersei is all saggy, has a beer gut, is bald, and has rubbed her skin pink from taking too many shame baths. I don't think this defense will work.

For now, yes. But much of this is reversible. Even Dany was bald for a while but has clearly regained her beauty (even if you hate her otherwise).

[Hajk]

There was a case in the USA where a women avoided jail time because she was too pretty for it, so maybe we could apply it to Cersei too ?

I wanted to see if this was true or an urban legend. So I checked. Apparently it's true. Her name was Debra La Fave and her lawyer argued:

"To place Debbie into a Florida state women's penitentiary, to place an attractive young woman in that kind of hellhole, is like putting a piece of raw meat in with the lions."

Given that her crime was child molestation, she probably wouldn't have had a nice time in prison however she looked (although I'm not sure if this is as true for women as it is for men). She managed to avoid any jail time whatsoever.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

She murders and tortures. She is homophobic and misogynist. I don't think she deserves any sympathy.

[Kasporio]

I wanted to see if this was true or an urban legend. So I checked. Apparently it's true. Her name was Debra La Fave and her lawyer argued:

Given that her crime was child molestation, she probably wouldn't have had a nice time in prison however she looked (although I'm not sure if this is as true for women as it is for men). She managed to avoid any jail time whatsoever.

On the other hand Debra La fave had supposedly consensual sex with a 14 years old male student. She was 24 at the time. So ok the guy was young but there is only in the usa it would be qualify as child molesting. Thats why she wasnt sentenced to long jail time, not because she was hot.

[SkaggCannibal]

Twisting Tyrions's penis... have you never hurt any of your siblings when you were younger? Never teased, bullied? Come on, it's what children do. Tyrion seems perfectly fine to use his penis in every way possible, no lasting harm. Can't imagine it hurt any more than a regular circumcision.

There is also no inconclusive proof she murdered Melara when she was younger. And still, she would've been eight. Eight-year olds aren't evil. They are just raised very badly.

[Arthur Dayne's Honor Alt]

You are victim blaming

ad hominem.

[Cas Stark]

Twisting Tyrions's penis... have you never hurt any of your siblings when you were younger? Never teased, bullied? Come on, it's what children do. Tyrion seems perfectly fine to use his penis in every way possible, no lasting harm. Can't imagine it hurt any more than a regular circumcision.

There is also no inconclusive proof she murdered Melara when she was younger. And still, she would've been eight. Eight-year olds aren't evil. They are just raised very badly.

LOL. Cersei at 8 had not been raised 'very badly', there is no excuse for her killing Melara, which, she absolutely did push her down the well, refusal to put the clues together is just that, refusal.

It isn't really the point of whether lasting harm was done to Tyrion, but that she desired to harm an infant. This also is far out of the norm for normal sibling behavior.

[SkaggCannibal]

LOL. Cersei at 8 had not been raised 'very badly', there is no excuse for her killing Melara, which, she absolutely did push her down the well, refusal to put the clues together is just that, refusal.

It isn't really the point of whether lasting harm was done to Tyrion, but that she desired to harm an infant. This also is far out of the norm for normal sibling behavior.

So what are you saying, Cersei was obvious evil even as a five-year old child, and that's all her own doing? I'm sorry but I don't hold children responsible the same way as I do adults. Because they are fundamentally different.

[Cas Stark]

So what are you saying, Cersei was obvious evil even as a five-year old child, and that's all her own doing? I'm sorry but I don't hold children responsible the same way as I do adults. Because they are fundamentally different.

I'm saying she's bad, she was a bad child and is a bad adult. She likely suffers from some type of personality disorder. Her upbringing may have exacerbated some of her negative tendencies and might have been mitigated by a different, more loving environment, or perhaps not.

She has been doing terrible, horrible things since was EIGHT, voluntarily.

[SkaggCannibal]

I'm saying she's bad, she was a bad child and is a bad adult. She likely suffers from some type of personality disorder. Her upbringing may have exacerbated some of her negative tendencies and might have been mitigated by a different, more loving environment, or perhaps not.

She has been doing terrible, horrible things since was EIGHT, voluntarily.

And I'm saying there are no evil kids. There are confused, unraised, manipulated, stupid children, but I don't believe they can be evil the way an adult can be. They are kids and it's impossible to label them as bad and evil.

[Cas Stark]

And I'm saying there are no evil kids. There are confused, unraised, manipulated, stupid children, but I don't believe they can be evil the way an adult can be. They are kids and it's impossible to label them as bad and evil.

But we know in real life that there are people who are born sociopaths, manipulative children, children who lack normal empathy or emotions, children from normal, loving families who nevertheless do "bad" things at very young ages..

[Arthur Dayne's Honor Alt]

Nope

yup. You couldn't come up with a constructive argument against his so you attacked him by saying he was victim blaming.

[SkaggCannibal]

But we know in real life that there are people who are born sociopaths, manipulative children, children who lack normal empathy or emotions, children from normal, loving families who nevertheless do "bad" things at very young ages..

There are children born with the possbility to become sociopaths, and I Cersei surely was born with the possibilities to become an aweful human being. But because a children can become such a person, doesn't mean they will. If Cersei had had a decent upbringing, she could've become an entirely different person than she is now. She was not born evil.

[Cas Stark]

There are children born with the possbility to become sociopaths, and I Cersei surely was born with the possibilities to become an aweful human being. But because a children can become such a person, doesn't mean they will. If Cersei had had a decent upbringing, she could've become an entirely different person than she is now. She was not born evil.

She has two siblings, and while they are both selfish and arrogant, they didn't kill anyone when they were preteens, they both exhibit a range of normal emotions including empathy. Cersei shows none of this. Her upbringing is an excuse. Despite her massive privilege, she has always been a resentful, unhappy person, always wanting whatever it was that she did not have. That isn't a function of upbringing but of personality.