Benjen as coldhands

[Northernmonkey]

Stateofdissipation - I accept it's theoretically possible that Coldhands is Benjen, but you have to accept that all the evidence suggests otherwise.

- Bran doesn't recognise him and he doesn't identify himself to Bran

- Leaf says he died a long time ago

- He knows a strange language (presumably the old tongue)

Now you might be able to explain these things individually, but together they suggest that he probably isn't Benjen. In fact, the only thing to suggest he might be Benjen is that he was in the Night's Watch

[stateofdissipation]

Stateofdissipation - I accept it's theoretically possible that Coldhands is Benjen, but you have to accept that all the evidence suggests otherwise.

- Bran doesn't recognise him and he doesn't identify himself to Bran

- Leaf says he died a long time ago

- He knows a strange language (presumably the old tongue)

Now you might be able to explain these things individually, but together they suggest that he probably isn't Benjen. In fact, the only thing to suggest he might be Benjen is that he was in the Night's Watch

Thank you fine monkey...evidence does suggest quite a bit....

Coldhands covers his face... suggests he does not wish to be recognized.

1. hiding a horrific wound

2. hiding his face

Either way coldhands does not wish to have his face seen. To suggest he would then introduce himself is to ignore the concealment.

who is a function of what... and what he is is a masked man....the paradox of asking a man who does not wish to be identified for his identity...

Leaf says the Wights killed Coldhands long ago... Wights are know to be recent or 8000 years ago. 2 years is long ago compared to the immediate threat Bran suggested. 2 years is long ago to Bran. The passage was after Leaf's history lesson and was Leaf telling Bran to follow her now.

the Night's Watch knew about Mance Rayder king beyond the wall long before he is seen. The Night's Watch gets some sort of reports from the wildings. Wildings do not visit the wall but rangers visit the wildings. Rangers then communicate with the wildings. Most wildings speak the old tongue. Bran does not know the old tongue. Benjen could.

The concealed face and lack of identification/ strange language/ killed by wights long ago..... are separate linking them together does make a stronger case.

Benjen-thin, Ranger, Night's Watch

Coldhands-thin, Ranger, Night's Watch

Starks known to be wargs.... Coldhands appears to be a warg

Benjen missing two plus years---Coldhands wearing mottled blacks

The evidence against is largely obscure and circumstantial

The evidence for is largely concrete

Finding another candidate that would prove more likely would be a big step in tilting the scales one way or another.

from the evidence.... Benjen is by far the best current candidate

[stateofdissipation]

Benjen and a party of 6 set out from the wall... 2 of the party were later found a days ride from the wall. The remaining rangers were unaccounted for. Until NOW----

Outside Leaf's cave, Bran and company fought the wights. Some of the wights wore black cloaks and at least one wore mail and leather. That is Night's Watch.

Leaf says They killed him long ago. Most have been focused on the long ago the and forgotten that They killed him. They are the wights outside the cave. Leaf said the wights outside the cave killed Coldhands. Leaf did not say wights or others or somebody... she said they... those wights.

[FittleLinger]

Leaf says the Wights killed Coldhands long ago... Wights are know to be recent or 8000 years ago. 2 years is long ago compared to the immediate threat Bran suggested. 2 years is long ago to Bran. The passage was after Leaf's history lesson and was Leaf telling Bran to follow her now.

Backing you up and not saying anything against or for, but...

Not only this, but in the previous sentence she says she learned the common tongue only and solely because of Bran. Thus, she admits her purpose is this Brandon Stark. To say that "long ago" cannot be compared to anything else but her lifespan is not a strong argument in any way.

[FittleLinger]

Benjen and a party of 6 set out from the wall... 2 of the party were later found a days ride from the wall. The remaining rangers were unaccounted for. Until NOW----

Outside Leaf's cave, Bran and company fought the wights. Some of the wights wore black cloaks and at least one wore mail and leather. That is Night's Watch.

Leaf says They killed him long ago. Most have been focused on the long ago the and forgotten that They killed him. They are the wights outside the cave. Leaf said the wights outside the cave killed Coldhands. Leaf did not say wights or others or somebody... she said they... those wights.

Sorry for the double post, but this is at least an interesting route to go as well.

[stateofdissipation]

Backing you up and not saying anything against or for, but...

Not only this, but in the previous sentence she says she learned the common tongue only and solely because of Bran. Thus, she admits her purpose is this Brandon Stark. To say that "long ago" cannot be compared to anything else but her lifespan is not a strong argument in any way.Th

How long in Leaf's terms have the wights outside the cave (They) been there?

The brothers of the Night's watch among the wights seems to make the presence of the wights outside the cave more recent event.

If Leaf was exact in the timeframe then Leaf was exact on those that killed Coldhands.

and the previous sentence was 'they'll kill him'

he cannot come

what about the ranger

come with me now

[FittleLinger]

How long in Leaf's terms have the wights outside the cave (They) been there?

The brothers of the Night's watch among the wights seems to make the presence of the wights outside the cave more recent event.

If Leaf was exact in the timeframe then Leaf was exact on those that killed Coldhands.

I see what you are saying, but... It would've been strange for CH/BR not to warn them that there were wights just before the cave. Maybe they are more recent corpses. In any way, knowing that I mostly agree with you, "they" could be just an active/passive voice thing.

[stateofdissipation]

I see what you are saying, but... It would've been strange for CH/BR not to warn them that there were wights just before the cave. Maybe they are more recent corpses. In any way, knowing that I mostly agree with you, "they" could be just an active/passive voice thing.

The night's watch wights present are an interesting point.

It would be odd for CH not to warn the party if he knew... it would be stranger still for a long ago killed wight not to know that wights hide beneath the snow. Apparently that was a new thing to him. CH did know that the Others do not leave tracks in the snow.

Now that also pokes a major hole in the CH a meatpuppet for BR. BR and Leaf would have known that the wights were under the snow and apparently CH did not.

[FittleLinger]

The night's watch wights present are an interesting point.

It would be odd for CH not to warn the party if he knew... it would be stranger still for a long ago killed wight not to know that wights hide beneath the snow. Apparently that was a new thing to him. CH did know that the Others do not leave tracks in the snow.

Now that also pokes a major hole in the CH a meatpuppet for BR. BR and Leaf would have known that the wights were under the snow and apparently CH did not.

Oh, I trully don't believe that CH is a puppet for BR. I trully believe that he has his own consciousness.

That said, that is not a strong point pro-Benjen IF... these were his own party.

I believe these were NOT his own party and he honestly didn't know.

[Deep Like Davos]

Think the "they" means wights in general. Not these particular meat bags.

[stateofdissipation]

Oh, I trully don't believe that CH is a puppet for BR. I trully believe that he has his own consciousness.

That said, that is not a strong point pro-Benjen IF... these were his own party.

I believe these were NOT his own party and he honestly didn't know.

Well there were NW in with the wights.. black cloaks mail, wool, and leather. There are Wymar and Will plus Benjen and 3 that are missing from the NW. An unknown number are with the wights in front of the cave.

CH honestly did not know that wights hid under the snow. It is hard to believe that CH had been around for hundreds of years and had never seen that before.

If the last time Benjen was there he saw, fought, and was killed by the wights, when he returned and did not see the wights proceeding seemed like the thing to do.

[stateofdissipation]

Think the "they" means wights in general. Not these particular meat bags.

ahh They means anybody (but not the current subject of concern) but long ago must mean a specific timeframe in relation to Leaf's 200 plus years (not in relation to the immediate threat brought up by Bran)

[Deep Like Davos]

ahh They means anybody (but not the current subject of concern) but long ago must mean a specific timeframe in relation to Leaf's 200 plus years (not in relation to the immediate threat brought up by Bran)

Must is a strong word. Don't know how long long ago was. I am still hung up on how there are only two choices, a few years ago or 8K.

I think that the Others/wights have been around this whole time, just in a generally not traveled area for wildlings. It would seem that the COTF's cave is not a big tourist destination for wildlings. Much like Hardhome they may shun it (but for different reasons). Its true that the Other's/wights may have stepped up their game in the last few years, but to think they haven't been around at all doesn't work for me.

The vast majority of wildlings can't read or write. Their knowledge of this threat (and how to fight it) has been passed down from generation to generation by mouth. they know more about this enemy than the Watch at this point. The North tells these stories to their kids as fairy tales. The wildlings tell their kids about it as an actual warning. Does that sound like a threat that has been gone from the world beyond the wall for 8K years?

Edit: just to be clear, Daemon II as Coldhands is my baby, so part of this is selfishly trying to get the "long ago" part to match up. If he is indeed Daemon II a quarter of Leaf's life would def count as long ago.

[FittleLinger]

Well there were NW in with the wights.. black cloaks mail, wool, and leather. There are Wymar and Will plus Benjen and 3 that are missing from the NW. An unknown number are with the wights in front of the cave.

CH honestly did not know that wights hid under the snow. It is hard to believe that CH had been around for hundreds of years and had never seen that before.

If the last time Benjen was there he saw, fought, and was killed by the wights, when he returned and did not see the wights proceeding seemed like the thing to do.

The bolded part - I agree.

One thing we have to notice though, is that a lot of NW brothers are missing after the mutiny at Crasters's not only Benjen's and Wayman's parties.

I hope you're seeing that I'm with you trying to figure it out and I don't have a formed opinion on the matter. One thing we certainly agree on is that "long ago" doesn't bury the Benjen theory at all.

[stateofdissipation]

Missing NW brothers.. Wymar and will plus Benjen and 3. That makes 6 all of them rangers.

The NW outside the cave are the wights of Rangers. Where Wymar and will were killed is known, So either Wymar and Will wights went to the cave or Benjen and his men went to the caveas wights or became wights there.

Wights can't enter the cave. So a wight travelling to the cave was either to pursue some living person headed there, to stop some living person from leaving. to stop a living person from entering.

If Benjen's men are outside the cave Benjen is CH. There are two distinct NW brothers described in the fight outside the cave. 1 summer attacks and 2. hodor slices.

[stateofdissipation]

The bolded part - I agree.

One thing we have to notice though, is that a lot of NW brothers are missing after the mutiny at Crasters's not only Benjen's and Wayman's parties.

I hope you're seeing that I'm with you trying to figure it out and I don't have a formed opinion on the matter. One thing we certainly agree on is that "long ago" doesn't bury the Benjen theory at all.

The NW from the fist and Craster were behind CH and crew. (CH went back to take care of them) The NW outside the cave were in front of CH and buried pretty deeply in the snow.

[FittleLinger]

The NW from the fist and Craster were behind CH and crew. (CH went back to take care of them) The NW outside the cave were in front of CH and buried pretty deeply in the snow.

It was a setup, though. I don't believe that all those wights accidentally died on that very spot and the snow covered them.

[Mayura]

The reason why I also doubt Coldhands is Benjen is because this character (Coldhands) is meant to have a specific use for the greenseer. I mean, if we think about that, Coldhands is the only creature that is safe from the wights and maybe even from the Others:

• Leaf is a COTF and can be a potential target, she is also mortal as are the other COTF
  
• Most of the other living creatures are in such danger that they retreat in the darkness, in the caves harboring the greenseer.
  
• Animals like crows can make sounds but they cannot communicate or have full conversations. Same goes for every other animal/tree: no capacity to communicate.
  

That said, Coldhands is undead, he can speak, hence he has the double advantage of not fearing neither the wights/WW nor the cold and he can communicate/lead people to the cave.

That's why he is essential for Bloodraven/the greenseer. He is the only creature which can wonder outside of the cave and not fear for his life. He can be their messenger to deliver messages or to deliver people to the cave without facing the dangers living creatures would face beyond the Wall.

This is why I think Coldhands is not Benjen: his role seems to be too essential to the greenseer, because of his unique nature, and I don't think they waited until Benjen arrived beyond the Wall to have Coldhands at their service. Also, the capacities Coldhands seems to display (commanding a lot of ravens, muttering killing rituals in what seems to be the old tongue) seem to be too "mastered" to be a recently acquired capacity. I know Benjen is still a mystery to us but I am of the opinion that if the ranger had displayed any supernatural capacity at all, we would have heard at least a hint of it. He could have been hiding his capacities indeed, but I would tend to doubt he managed to do that in front of all of the Watch during 15 years.

As for his "state", he is obviously dead but I also think he is not "just" a puppet as his body seems in a relatively good state. As Coldhands cannot enter the cave, should his body be left outside, it would undoubtedly be damaged by all sorts of animals. So I assume he is just forever ranging Beyond the Wall, unless BR has a "safe place" to put him.

As to who he is, obviously everything leads us to believe he either has a terrible scar and/or that Brandon could recognise him and he doesn't want to be recognised. I'd bet on an old Stark whose likeness Bran could still recognise (for seeing the statues in the crypts i.e).

Finally, this masked character who leads the characters to the caves and thus down into earth makes me think of Charon from the greek mythology. He had the appearance of an old hooded man and he was leading the souls to the world of the dead. This is also why Coldhands appeared to be a messenger to me.

[stateofdissipation]

Must is a strong word. Don't know how long long ago was. I am still hung up on how there are only two choices, a few years ago or 8K.

I think that the Others/wights have been around this whole time, just in a generally not traveled area for wildlings. It would seem that the COTF's cave is not a big tourist destination for wildlings. Much like Hardhome they may shun it (but for different reasons). Its true that the Other's/wights may have stepped up their game in the last few years, but to think they haven't been around at all doesn't work for me.

The vast majority of wildlings can't read or write. Their knowledge of this threat (and how to fight it) has been passed down from generation to generation by mouth. they know more about this enemy than the Watch at this point. The North tells these stories to their kids as fairy tales. The wildlings tell their kids about it as an actual warning. Does that sound like a threat that has been gone from the world beyond the wall for 8K years?

Edit: just to be clear, Daemon II as Coldhands is my baby, so part of this is selfishly trying to get the "long ago" part to match up. If he is indeed Daemon II a quarter of Leaf's life would def count as long ago.

The 8000 years or recent is in relation to known (NW and south of the wall) activity of the Others... significant enough to take members of the Night's Watch. If the Others were undetected by the NW for 8000 years, it is not too far of a stretch to think that is because they did not have contact.

I will agree that the wildings probably had contact with the others in the last 8000 years. However, the wildings do pass information on to the NW (Mance being king beyond the wall long before he was seen for example.). Apparently the wildings did not pass on stories of the others that were convinving enough to the NW to require their action.

[mkachmer]

I would think that Coldhands knowing where the entrace through the wall at the Night Fort is suggests two things... One Benjen most likely didn't know that this entrance existed but...

The Night King would. Stands to reason coldhands is the Night King and if you are like me, and believe Milesandre is the Night King's Queen disguised by glamour then should they cross paths that will be very interesting.

I am very interested in the notion that Milesandre intends to let the Others through the wall as she is one and perhaps the Night King ie Coldhands is trying to repent for his wrongs in the past... thus helping Bran.