Benjen as coldhands

[stateofdissipation]

No, "they" doesn't necessarily means "the wight outside the cave". It was more likely intended as meaning "the wights" in general or "the Others". You're making the assumption these particular wights are relevant, but even if they are, I doubt they are CH's killers. Assuming he got killed in front of that cave a few years ago as you suggest, he would be aware of the presence of these specific wights around the cave. And seeing how he deals with them, they'd have been dead things long before Bran reached the cave. But anyway, CH cannot both be surprised by the presence of these wights under the snow AND have been killed by these particular wights in front of that specific cave.

Gramatically the antecedents lead to the wights outside the cave. No, that does not mean it will be proven to be there is plenty of room for many narrative possibilities.

The wights in the front of the cave are relevant.

We know the NW sent Benjen and 6 to find a party of 3 lost north of the wall and sent the Great Ranging after Benjen

We know no comment was made of similarities between the current vanishings and previous ones

We know there are 7 members of the NW missing north of the wall.

We know there are at least 3 wights dressed in blacks: CH and a minimum of 2 outside the cave.

We know the 2 or more outside the cave in rotted leather and rusted mail were not part of the Great Ranging

That means that some of the 3 known wights are either part of the 7 missing or 3 NW brothers went missing north of the wall and were not noted or remembered by the NW

Either way it is significant,

CH was cautious outside the cave

He moved forward only when he saw no wights or others

He was surprised by the wights under the snow

Assuming he gotm killed in front of that cave a few years ago as you suggest, he would be aware of the presence of these specific wights around the cave.

CH was cautious moving forward only after looking for wights or others.

And seeing how he deals with them, they'd have been dead things long before Bran reached the cave.

I am not sure if you are speaking of the condition of their clothing rotted leather, wet wool, and rusted mail or you are speaking of the fire, The fire works on pretty fresh wights. They certainly are not freshly dead based on clothing.

But anyway, CH cannot both be surprised by the presence of these wights under the snow AND have been killed by these particular wights in front of that specific cave.

CH was not surprised by the presence of the wights in fact he was cautious and warned that white walkers tread lightly on the snow.

He was surprised the wights were under the snow. That would tend to indicate he had not seen it before. It was either a new tactic for the wights or it was or a older tactic that was new to CH.

[the andorran]

Gramatically the antecedents lead to the wights outside the cave. No, that does not mean it will be proven to be there is plenty of room for many narrative possibilities.

As a student of linguistics, this argument doesn't hold water. Prescriptively, in formal writing, you probably shouldn't use a third person personal pronoun without an antecedent, but in regular speech, this sort of thing happens all the time (pronouns not quite matching antecedents and implied antecedents). Linguistically speaking, it is perfectly grammatical for Leaf's answer to refer to wights in general. Particularly since, unless you know the corpse, there's not a lot of point thus far in differentiating between the zombies trying to kill you.

[Muggle]

To me its pretty obvious the Benjen is not ColdHands. The quote about Leaf saying they killed him long ago has me pretty convinced. Seeing Benjen has been mia what 3-4 years? And Leaf's life span is hundreds.

[stateofdissipation]

As a student of linguistics, this argument doesn't hold water. Prescriptively, in formal writing, you probably shouldn't use a third person personal pronoun without an antecedent, but in regular speech, this sort of thing happens all the time (pronouns not quite matching antecedents and implied antecedents). Linguistically speaking, it is perfectly grammatical for Leaf's answer to refer to wights in general. Particularly since, unless you know the corpse, there's not a lot of point thus far in differentiating between the zombies trying to kill you.

You are absoltely correct. In a way.

When Bran used 'they' he had a situational antecedet from: they'll kill him. and it was absolutely clear. Leaf's then conversational repeated They takes the antecedent of its previous use. Barring an error in translation from Leaf or deliberate misrepresentation, they referred to the wights outside the cave.

Team X and Team Y are going to play a game.

I say: I love Team X, They will win.

You say: they will.

I say: Team X is just too good. I bet you $100 they will win.

You say: I bet they will lose,

I say: It's a bet.

You say: it's a bet

If Team X wins, can you claim my money that you only said they will lose and you were speaking about team Y?

[stateofdissipation]

To me its pretty obvious the Benjen is not ColdHands

To me it is pretty obvious the Muggle thinks that Benjen is not Coldhands because Muggle said so.

[Muggle]

To me it is pretty obvious the Muggle thinks that Benjen is not Coldhands because Muggle said so.

I was walking away when i typed that and didn't mean to post it. As you can see i came back to edit my response and give my reasoning before you made this ass of an post.

[stateofdissipation]

I was walking away when i typed that and didn't mean to post it. As you can see i came back to edit my response and give my reasoning before you made this ass of an post.

I did not mean to offend you.

It was apparently a none too effective way to ask you to please explain. It was pretty clearly a mispost. I thought a reply would put it back to you.

[stateofdissipation]

To me its pretty obvious the Benjen is not ColdHands. The quote about Leaf saying they killed him long ago has me pretty convinced. Seeing Benjen has been mia what 3-4 years? And Leaf's life span is hundreds.

Bran: What about the ranger,

Leaf: He cannot come.

Bran: They'lll kill him

Leaf: No, they killed him long ago.

In the exchange long ago is a correction to Bran's will. Gramatically Leaf's they is the same as Bran's which refers to the wights outside the cave.

Taking both as falling against Benjen being coldhands by allowing Leaf to be specific to her lifespan in saying long ago and generalize as to who actually killed CH is quite fine. For the sake of argument I will accept it.

Yoren's blacks are so faded they are gray and he has worn them for less than 30 years. CH is dressed in mottled blacks and Grays.

If CH died more than 30 years ago, where did he get new clothes? (there are 7 known options)

If CH died within the last 30 years there were active wights taking NW brothers intermittently without notice or record. (No mention is made of earlier disappearances in relation to either Waymar or Benjen)

A minimum of 2 NW brothers are outside the cave dressed in blacks wearing rotted leather, rusted mail, and wet wool. Their condition precludes them from being from the great ranging, There are 7 brothers reported as missing earlier than that.

If CH and the 2 brothers outside the cave are not from the Waymar or Coldhands, 10 members of the nights watch went missing north of the wall with 5 confirmed killed by wights or others which nobody had seen for 8000 years before Waymar was killed.

[stateofdissipation]

Just a thought on Leaf's little talk with Bran. She did not give her 200 years wandering in the world of men, and the 10K years before men arrived in westeros as a history lesson. She gave them as a correction to Bran calling her a child of the forest. Her correction ended with men are the children. Theh conversation proves her point. Men and not the little people of the forest are the children. Now, the conversation does not directly state the limited lifespan and time of men. But it relies on it to establish the Men are the children.

It also establishes that Leaf is speaking to a child of a child. For Leaf to assume that Bran would understand that long ago meant a period of hundreds or thousands of years would be the same as an adult explaining the alphabet to an infant. Until that point Leaf worked to put what she meant into terms Bran would understand and use to come to the appropriate conclusion.

[Bloodrobin]

Just a thought on Leaf's little talk with Bran. She did not give her 200 years wandering in the world of men, and the 10K years before men arrived in westeros as a history lesson. She gave them as a correction to Bran calling her a child of the forest. Her correction ended with men are the children. Theh conversation proves her point. Men and not the little people of the forest are the children. Now, the conversation does not directly state the limited lifespan and time of men. But it relies on it to establish the Men are the children.

It also establishes that Leaf is speaking to a child of a child. For Leaf to assume that Bran would understand that long ago meant a period of hundreds or thousands of years would be the same as an adult explaining the alphabet to an infant. Until that point Leaf worked to put what she meant into terms Bran would understand and use to come to the appropriate conclusion.

Leaf's answer about men being the children was to Meera (a "woman grown") in response to her surprise that Leaf was at least two hundred years old...

“Who are you?” Meera Reed was asking.

Bran knew. “She’s a child. A child of the forest.” He shivered, as much from wonderment as cold. They had fallen into one of Old Nan’s tales.

“The First Men named us children,” the little woman said. “The giants called us woh dak nag gran, the squirrel people, because we were small and quick and fond of trees, but we are no squirrels, no children. Our name in the True Tongue means those who sing the song of earth. Before your Old Tongue was ever spoken, we had sung our songs ten thousand years.”

Meera said, “You speak the Common Tongue now.”

“For him. The Bran boy. I was born in the time of the dragon, and for two hundred years I walked the world of men, to watch and listen and learn. I might be walking still, but my legs were sore and my heart was weary, so I turned my feet for home.”

“Two hundred years?” said Meera.

The child smiled. “Men, they are the children.”

“Do you have a name?” asked Bran.

“When I am needing one.” She waved her torch toward the black crack in the back wall of the cave. “Our way is down. You must come with me now.”

Bran shivered again. “The ranger …”

“He cannot come.”

“They’ll kill him.”

“No. They killed him long ago. Come now. It is warmer down deep, and no one will hurt you there. He is waiting for you.”

For Leaf to assume that Meera would understand that long ago meant a period of hundreds or thousands of years would require nothing more than expecting Meera to understand the immediate context of what Leaf was saying. The point she had just immediately made to Meera was that, from the perspective of the long-lived CotF like Leaf, hundreds or even thousands of years was not regarded as nearly so long as it was among more ephemeral humans. She had just made the specific point that two hundred years was not so long ago to her, a "child" of the forest.

Of course Coldhands could still be Benjen Stark. GRRM hasn't revealed who he is or Benjen's fate. But this comment by Leaf makes it seem very unlikely. Her reference to CH's death as occurring long ago to her cannot be easily dismissed.

[stateofdissipation]

Leaf's answer about men being the children was to Meera (a "woman grown") in response to her surprise that Leaf was at least two hundred years old...

For Leaf to assume that Meera would understand that long ago meant a period of hundreds or thousands of years would require nothing more than expecting Meera to understand the immediate context of what Leaf was saying. The point she had just immediately made to Meera was that, from the perspective of the long-lived CotF like Leaf, hundreds or even thousands of years was not regarded as nearly so long as it was among more ephemeral humans. She had just made the specific point that two hundred years was not so long ago to her, a "child" of the forest.

Of course Coldhands could still be Benjen Stark. GRRM hasn't revealed who he is or Benjen's fate. But this comment by Leaf makes it seem very unlikely. Her reference to CH's death as occurring long ago to her cannot be easily dismissed.

Thank you for the handy quote.

Bran knew. “She’s a child. A child of the forest.” He shivered, as much from wonderment as cold. They had fallen into one of Old Nan’s tales.

“The First Men named us children,” the little woman said. “The giants called us woh dak nag gran, the squirrel people, because we were small and quick and fond of trees, but we are no squirrels, no children. Our name in the True Tongue means those who sing the song of earth. Before your Old Tongue was ever spoken, we had sung our songs ten thousand years.”

Meera interrupted her Meera said, “You speak the Common Tongue now.”

Leaf answered.“For him. The Bran boy." and then picked up where she left off.I was born in the time of the dragon, and for two hundred years I walked the world of men, to watch and listen and learn. I might be walking still, but my legs were sore and my heart was weary, so I turned my feet for home.”

Meera interrupted again:“Two hundred years?” said Meera.

Leaf responded to Meera with a smile and finished her story to Bran, The child smiled. “Men, they are the children.”

Leaf's comment on men being the children relates directly to her correction of Bran calling her a child:

Bran knew. “She’s a child. A child of the forest.”

"The First Men named us children,” the little woman said. “The giants called us woh dak nag gran, the squirrel people, because we were small and quick and fond of trees, but we are no squirrels, no children. Our name in the True Tongue means those who sing the song of earth. Before your Old Tongue was ever spoken, we had sung our songs ten thousand years.”"I was born in the time of the dragon, and for two hundred years I walked the world of men, to watch and listen and learn. I might be walking still, but my legs were sore and my heart was weary, so I turned my feet for home.”“Men, they are the children.”

Leaf, clearly addresses Bran, she speaks the common tongue for Bran. Her comment “For him. The Bran boy." is the only part of the conversation that is exclusively directed to or responding solely to what Meera says. Meera asks a question. Bran answers it and Leaf corrects Bran. Meera interrupts and Leaf answers her. Then leaf continues her story. Meera interrupts again and Leaf ignores it to finish her story. She then talks to Bran.

Leaf's answer about men being the children was to Meera (a "woman grown") in response to her surprise that Leaf was at least two hundred years old...

Meera's being a woman grown was never brought up. Leaf's reaction to Meera in general was dismissive. To Leaf Bran was what mattered.

For Leaf to assume that Meera would understand that long ago meant a period of hundreds or thousands of years would require nothing more than expecting Meera to understand the immediate context of what Leaf was saying.

Leaf did not say long ago to Meera, she said it in a correction to Bran. She also said it to get Bran to go into the cave with her immediately. The only connection Leaf's long ago has is with Bran's They'll kill him

The point she had just immediately made to Meera was that, from the perspective of the long-lived CotF like Leaf, hundreds or even thousands of years was not regarded as nearly so long as it was among more ephemeral humans.

The point Leaf made to Meera was that Him the Bran boy was the one that was important to her.

She had just made the specific point that two hundred years was not so long ago to her, a "child" of the forest.

Leaf mentioned 200 years in passing. Meera made a specific point of it and was ignored,

You seem to be unable to dismiss the specific nature of a relative term but completely ignore a specific one: They.

When Bran used 'they' he had a situational antecedet from: they'll kill him. and it was absolutely clear. Leaf's then conversationally repeated "They" takes the antecedent of its previous use. Barring an error in translation from Leaf or deliberate misrepresentation, they referred to the wights outside the cave.

Team X and Team Y are going to play a game.

I say: I love Team X, They will win.

You say: they will.

I say: Team X is just too good. I bet you $100 they will win.

You say: I bet they will lose,

I say: It's a bet.

You say: it's a bet

If Team X wins, can you claim my money that you only said they will lose and you were speaking about team Y?

[stateofdissipation]

Are you forgetting Mance was born a wildling yet joined the Watch?

I did forget thatt one.... also stonesnake does not sound very much like a name from the south.

[stateofdissipation]

No. They killed him long ago.

If leaf knows who killed him, and when he died it stands to reason that Leaf knew who he was.

(It would also stand to reason as CH knew of the location of the cave and the back door to the cave that he knew Leaf. As he was bringing Bran to BR it would stand to reason that BR knew him as well.)

As Bran called him the Ranger. it stands to reason that Leaf knew that Bran did not know.

As Leaf knew who Coldhands was and that he had not told Bran, It would stand to reason that giving an exact time of death would narrow the possibilities.

[Tellus Explorer]

To me its pretty obvious the Benjen is not ColdHands. The quote about Leaf saying they killed him long ago has me pretty convinced. Seeing Benjen has been mia what 3-4 years? And Leaf's life span is hundreds.

I like a large sum of others want Benjen to be alive however I have no inkling of thought that he is CH.....

So I agree with you entirely, we don't know where he is and with Leaf's wisdom I highly doubt that would be untrue

[Bloodrobin]

You seem to be unable to dismiss the specific nature of a relative term but completely ignore a specific one: They.

No. But this whole thread shows that you are quite unwilling to even consider anything that doesn't support your view that Benjen is CH. So never mind. :laugh:

[Deep Like Davos]

No. But this whole thread shows that you are quite unwilling to even consider anything that doesn't support your view that Benjen is CH. So never mind. :laugh:

As well as posting, getting no reply, posting again, then posting again when can just edit last post to add new material. Oh AND stalking me and posting about this topic on another thread all together. http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/105199-adding-to-coldhands-theory-page/?p=5503337

[stateofdissipation]

No. But this whole thread shows that you are quite unwilling to even consider anything that doesn't support your view that Benjen is CH. So never mind. :laugh:

My view is not limited to Benjen... there are 7 NW rangers missing north of the wall

When 3 went missing they sent 7 looking for what happened to them. When they went missing the NW sent the Great Ranging.

No mention was made of earlier disappearences

No mention was made of earlier search parties.

Wights and others were not seen or heard of by the NW in hundreds and thousands of years.

Now if the 7 are unconnected with CH and the 2 NW minumum outside the cave. there were 10 missing North of the wall.

The 3 extra contradict the NW known practices and known activity of the Others.

To give that up over two words... because of one interpretation of them seems a little hasty.

Unless those two words name CH

[Northernmonkey]

My view is not limited to Benjen... there are 7 NW rangers missing north of the wall

When 3 went missing they sent 7 looking for what happened to them. When they went missing the NW sent the Great Ranging.

No mention was made of earlier disappearences

No mention was made of earlier search parties.

Wights and others were not seen or heard of by the NW in hundreds and thousands of years.

Now if the 7 are unconnected with CH and the 2 NW minumum outside the cave. there were 10 missing North of the wall.

The 3 extra contradict the NW known practices and known activity of the Others.

To give that up over two words... because of one interpretation of them seems a little hasty.

Unless those two words name CH

I've completely lost track of what you're talking about, but let's get back to the original point. There is only one thing that suggests Coldhands is Benjen - the fact that he was in the night's watch, and obviously thousands of others were as well.

So why are you so certain that Coldhands is Benjen? Is it just a hunch?

[stateofdissipation]

I've completely lost track of what you're talking about, but let's get back to the original point. There is only one thing that suggests Coldhands is Benjen - the fact that he was in the night's watch, and obviously thousands of others were as well.

So why are you so certain that Coldhands is Benjen? Is it just a hunch?

CH is NW though there are thousands only 7 were known to be missing when CH was introduced.

Coldhands is described as very thin... Benjen is described as very thin

CH is apparently a Warg.... Starks are known to be wargs

he is the obvious candidate....

Detractors include:

Speaking an unknown tongue

The NW receives intel from the wildings (Mance as king beyond the wall must have been reported by somebody. Kinging is not something observable. Most wildings speak the old tongue. It would be safe to assume that speaking the old tongue would be useful to a ranger.) Benjen had been a ranger for 15 years.

was killed long ago

CH knew there were wights/others outside the cave but was surprised that they were under the snow. Either that was a new tactic by the wights or it was new to CHs. The latter does not bode well for him being too very old.

The clothing CH wears does not bode well for being dead long ago by leaf's terms (Yoren's clothing was faded to gray from his time wandering the 7 kingdoms. 30 years. CH was described as wearing mottled blacks and grays.)

Leaf knows Bran does not know CH by name. Leaf also knows CHs had time to tell him. Giving a specific time of death would give Bran a large clue to his identity. Additionally it would not have made Leaf's task of getting Bran to BR any easier.

[Deep Like Davos]

What makes u think He is a warg? No evidence.