Which character is most likely to be transgender?

[cocoalover1956]

I'd rather characterisations be added based on what they bring to the narrative to be honest, rather than making readers feel included.

If GRRM thinks a character being transgender works within the context of the the setting for a particular character and thinks it'll add to the richness of that characterisation he'll add one.

Ticking off boxes seems like anti-art to me.

I get what you're saying, but I don't think my point is being anti-art. Artistic license is great, and Martin can write whatever he wants, but his writing doesn't exist in a vacuum. Exclusion of marginalized people in media is further exclusion from society. And if that's something I don't like about his writing, shouldn't I be allowed to critique that?

[eyenon15]

It's pretty difficult dealing with transgender issues.

Bringing a transgender character sounds nice until you get flamed because you didn't write the transgender character correctly as deemed by someone with a blog.

Safer to stay away from it than to risk a twitter campaign dedicated to how trans phobic you are.

[Elizarys Stark]

It's pretty difficult dealing with transgender issues.

Bringing a transgender character sounds nice until you get flamed because you didn't write the transgender character correctly as deemed by someone with a blog.

Safer to stay away from it than to risk a twitter campaign dedicated to how trans phobic you are.

Seriously? What on earth would EVER get written if the risk of criticism were enought to deter people from writing about x subject, or including y characters?

[King of Vaes Tolorro]

Good to know you're advocating the imprisonment of all non-cis people bro! Really, the concept that sex assigned at birth and gender are two different things, and that chromosomes do not determine gender identification, is not that difficult to grasp.

I support treating them, like you would support treating someone who thought they were Jesus come again. It is is difficult to grasp that non-cis(if that is what they are called) are not considered mentally ill, like those who think they are Julius Caesar are considered mentally ill. It is the same thing, thinking you are something you are not. A rock is a rock, Doesn't matter what it is identified as, it is a rock. To say anything else is to deny reality, and only the insane, ignorant, and religious do that.

[Lion Of The Night]

I get what you're saying, but I don't think my point is being anti-art. Artistic license is great, and Martin can write whatever he wants, but his writing doesn't exist in a vacuum. Exclusion of marginalized people in media is further exclusion from society. And if that's something I don't like about his writing, shouldn't I be allowed to critique that?

I know what you mean, but thats like saying we should repaint parts of the sistine chapel because there is not enough representation of people of african descent.

You can critique it, but no one should be or feel presured change or add anything to their in the sake of representation. We have he right to chose not to read it, or create our own.

[Lion Of The Night]

I support treating them, like you would support treating someone who thought they were Jesus come again.It is is difficult to grasp that that is not considered a mental sickness, when thinking you are Julius Ceasar is. It is the same thing, thinking you are something you are not. A rokc is a rock, Doesn't matter what it is identified as, it is a rock. To say anything is to deny reality, and only the insane, ignorant, and religous do that.

Ok I'm done with this topic, before it gets out of hand. Discussing artistic merits is one thing but this, this line of reasoning will only lead to bitter argument.

[cxvb]

I support treating them, like you would support treating someone who thought they were Jesus come again. It is difficult to grasp that non-cis(if that is what they are called) are not considered mentally ill, like those who think they are Julius Caesar are considered mentally ill. It is the same thing, thinking you are something you are not.

Your phrasing won't win you any friends, but regardless: They _are_ treated the same. You can believe you're Julius Caesar (or, for more fun, the Emperor of the United States) and nobody is going to bother you about it, unless you're a danger to yourself or others. Various people will indulge you to various degrees. Similarly, you can be transgender and various people will endulge you to various degrees. (It's like the old joke about everybody's opinion being respected, but some opinions are like the belief your wife is the most beautiful woman and your son the smartest kid in the world.)

If and only if people have a problem with the discrepancy between their perception of reality and the perception of other people, there are drugs and therapy (for both) and surgery for transgender persons, all of which aim to reduce the discrepancy between the way a person sees the world and the way other people see it.

The comparison breaks down when you get more specific, as the causes are different and believing you're someone else is rather odd and specific mismatch, whereas not fitting into patterns offered by your culture is something we all experience during adolescence.

[King of Vaes Tolorro]

Your phrasing won't win you any friends, but regardless: They _are_ treated the same. You can believe you're Julius Caesar (or, for more fun, the Emperor of the United States) and nobody is going to bother you about it, unless you're a danger to yourself or others. Various people will indulge you to various degrees. Similarly, you can be transgender and various people will endulge you to various degrees. (It's like the old joke about everybody's opinion being respected, but some opinions are like the belief your wife is the most beautiful woman and your son the smartest kid in the world.)

If and only if people have a problem with the discrepancy between their perception of reality and the perception of other people, there are drugs and therapy (for both) and surgery for transgender persons, all of which aim to reduce the discrepancy between the way a person sees the world and the way other people see it.

The comparison breaks down when you get more specific, as the causes are different and believing you're someone else is rather odd and specific mismatch, whereas not fitting into patterns offered by your culture is something we all experience during adolescence.

I'm not one for friends. And yes, perhaps my phrasing could have been softer, I agree.

But I will drop this.

[Keter]

I get what you're saying, but I don't think my point is being anti-art. Artistic license is great, and Martin can write whatever he wants, but his writing doesn't exist in a vacuum. Exclusion of marginalized people in media is further exclusion from society. And if that's something I don't like about his writing, shouldn't I be allowed to critique that?

You can't expect GRRM to include all modern groups in his work. For one, he began the series when transgender people had little to no place in the media (I'm not saying that this is a good thing). Secondly, I think he does enough by including many minorities as well as several homosexual characters in his work.

Asking more from him just comes off as including certain groups of people for its own sake. I mean, I think it would be reasonable to expect a transgender person in a work with a contemporary setting, but not in a work of medieval High Fantasy.

[Kick13]

Just no

[Elessar]

Fucking stupid thread.

"Hey if I post something ridiculous will you all read it?"

Well good on ya, we all fell for this shit.

[Dornish Vinegar]

Fucking stupid thread.

"Hey if I post something ridiculous will you all read it?"

Well good on ya, we all fell for this shit.

It's not a stupid thread in theory, though I am far from convinced of the OP's sincerity. It's a legitimate question.

As with any topic like this, it just gets pulled down into stupidity very, very fast.

[eyenon15]

Seriously? What on earth would EVER get written if the risk of criticism were enought to deter people from writing about x subject, or including y characters?

Well not writing a character X out of fear of scandal isnt any worse than force writing a token character X.

[INCBlackbird]

maybe Theon, I don't really think he is but he could be.

[cocoalover1956]

You can't expect GRRM to include all modern groups in his work. For one, he began the series when transgender people had little to no place in the media (I'm not saying that this is a good thing). Secondly, I think he does enough by including many minorities as well as several homosexual characters in his work.

Asking more from him just comes off as including certain groups of people for its own sake. I mean, I think it would be reasonable to expect a transgender person in a work with a contemporary setting, but not in a work of medieval High Fantasy.

I have a different take on the matter, but let's just agree to disagree. I don't think its unreasonable to want a transgender person in medieval fantasy series. They've existed throughout history, its just that we in the West are only just now acknowledging/talking about them.

[The She Wolf]

I don't see anything wrong with including a transgender character if GRRM chooses to, and Sarella is a good candidate.

Some of the replies on this thread are ridiculously immature and ignorant.

As a female I know I wouldn't enjoy ASOIAF at all if there were no female characters of note. It's a problem I have with a lot of other fantasy series.

[Winter's Knight]

I don't see anything wrong with including a transgender character if GRRM chooses to, and Sarella is a good candidate.

Some of the replies on this thread are ridiculously immature and ignorant.

As a female I know I wouldn't enjoy ASOIAF at all if there were no female characters of note. It's a problem I have with a lot of other fantasy series.

Right? A lot of discussion about representation in fantasy reminds me of this clip from Psych.

[Father of Hosts]

I think GRRM's stance on the whole thing is pretty accurate. He's not including different groups for the sake of including them, he's not our bitch etc. It's his story and I'm inclined to let him finish it on his own terms. He's gone above and beyond to take these criticisms into account and explain his view on the issue in a very articulate and caring manner. For that, he should be applauded.

This is probably just the internet but Glee, Dallas Buyers Club and even GOT have faced the wrath of the internet for casting choices. Well, parts of the internet anyway. It will be a sad day when the mob dictates how everything in art is represented. I find it seriously odd how shows that break the norm and portray certain groups that are usually excluded should be ridiculed on their choice of actor. Fucking Pedro Pascal wasn't even from Dorne.

I think in some way, GRRM is rebelling against this sort of critique in literature.

As far as everything else, sure, so long as it plays into the storyline in a meaningful way, I don't see why not. Inclusion to please the internet, not so much and probably impossible.

[CrannogXninja]

This is the stupidest post I have seen on this forum, I can't believe there are 5 pages dedicated to this. The OP is really hoping theres a trans reveal? You are more than likely one of the very few out of the millions of fans who wishes this. Who even wishes this? Weird. Weird Weird Weird Weird.

[Thanos Targaryen]

If you guys thought this thread was dumb then you should have seen the freakout on Gawker/Jezebel/io9 when HBO cast the Dornish as Spanish/Mediterranean instead of black/sub-Saharan African. What a ridiculous mess that was. Next to the spastic over-reaction to the last scene of Mhysa in season three the response by some to the Dornish casting was as close as I've ever seen to a race riot breaking out in an internet comment section.