The Main Problem With This Season

[Ojji]

I thought they said they specifically cast a woman for this purpose, that her maternal instincts would cause her to not be able to fight the zombie children. So this idea came from the showrunners themselves unless I've not understood, they thought it would be more emotional.

They really said that? If so, then sure, I'll buy it. That sounds pretty sexist and stupid thing to say.

[MaesterMan]

With all the criticisms, I feel an urge to mention of some of the excellent things this season:

the whole Hardhome encounter with the wildings and the White Walkers, (and Wun Wun!) (pretty sensational)

Cersei's walk of shame (well played by Lena Headey, well shot, pretty memorable (and one time to me where all the excessive female nudity did not feel gratuitous))

Tyrion meeting Daenerys (long overdue in the books, and also well played by Peter Dinklage and Emilia Clarke)

a number of visuals (the Khalasar surrounding Daenerys, the Night King raising his hands, the exterior shots of Braavos, are a few that come to mind).

Olenna sparring with the High Sparrow (I'm a huge fan of Dame Diana Rigg (had the pleasure a few years ago of seeing her live onstage in the West End in London, too), and I have enjoyed her Olenna a lot)

Sam Tarly's becoming more confident, less oafish, and more of a leader (John Bradley's a very engaging performer, and always has been in the part).

the whole arena scene in Meereen (granted, the CGI or whatever it was wasn't great on Dany's riding the dragon, but otherwise a very exciting scene, and Dany's interaction with Drogon in the wilderness in the final episode was much more believable effects-wise)

yes, the Dornish subplot was almost a complete waste, but the one thing that did shine amidst the bad writing and bad execution was Indira Varma, particularly when she submitted to Doran (her anguish over having to, allegedly as it turns out, let go of her desire for avenging Oberyn, was a palpable thing). And Jerome Flynn's reaction shots were good, too.

I think the biggest issue for me this season was that almost all of the good stuff I talk about above came in the last 3 or 4 episodes. The first six or seven felt mostly like filler somehow. I can appreciate the need to focus on main characters and have characters meet. I am all for trimming some of the fat from the books. I think seasons 1-4 were all stronger because the books become less strong starting with number A Feast for Crows, and because the showrunners had to combine the best elements of the books while condensing out tons of stuff, while simultaneously being held back by the need to focus on major characters. I am tired of all the brutalization at this point--it's not novel or exciting to me any more. And I miss the character moments. One of the reasons the first book is still the best for me is that the families were mostly together and interacting. Like The Lord of the Rings for me, once characters get separated, the story loses some of its appeal and all these extra minor characters start being brought in to give the major players people to whom they can react. It's not the same as having all the Starks together or all the Lannisters.

A final note: maybe it's good the show will now outstrip the books--we as a collective fandom can stop struggling over differences between books and show and just take the show for whatever it will be.

[The Frosted King]

I didn't mind Arya dicking around, her stuff is too internal to film easily. The Dornish plot was stupid, and sexually exploitive imo.

Dany I'm apathetic about.

My main issue is everything that occurred north of the neck and south of the Wall. Without the presence of the northern nobility at Winterfell, and the rising tensions there, it made everything Sansa and Stannis did, seem really stupid when actually considered.

With no northmen lords there, who was Sansa planning on using as her power base to take Winterfell back from her family's murderers? The old lady and a candle?

Why was it important for Stannis to defeat the Boltons and take Winterfell, if there weren't any northmen lords with significant manpower to win the fealty of?

Was he going to defeat the Boltons, and then sweep south with his remaining men, during winter? If that's the case, why didn't he immediately return to take Kingslanding after he got the sellsword army?

If next year they show the northern political scene, it's bad writing, because right now the entire northern arc for Sansa and Stannis was moot.

[DaBurglar]

Good points frosted KING! Your question(s) regarding stannis' whole decision making process is one I have been echoing as well......I felt from the moment he "bought into" Melisandre's Lord of Light and her Boobs of fire, his whole "STRATEGY" for taking the IRON throne was essentially a chinese fire drill......none of it makes much sense. I still rue the way the story went in season four, where we had Stannis & Davos in Braavos to try and get Gold, which Davos eventually does......and then poof! we do not see or hear ANYTHING from Stannis until the scene in the finale from season four where his (seemingly impressive) army is attacking the wildilngs NORTH of the wall!!! How did all that happen?!?!? I really would have liked to see him getting his army (i.e. choosing and buying it, talking with the soldiets in it and discussing WHERE he is taking them and what he plans to do.....we got none of that!) How and why did they take this new army and plop it north of the wall??? Since the battle of the wall & castle black took place not 24 hours prior to Stannis & his army showing up, where the fack was he that entire time?!?!?!? And you are correct, just what exactly was his long term plan(s) after taking winterfell, and more important, what happened to his concern and Melisandre's concern for the "REAL war", the war with the white walkers and the army of the dead>?? It is all so annoying......

[INCBlackbird]

The problem with this thinking, which D&D share, is that it emphasized plot at the expense of characters, and that's the opposite of how literature/storytelling works.

Plot should flow from characters, not the other way around. "The human heart in conflict w/ itself." Human beings (u r one, u can relate) cause plot, plot doesn't cause human beings.

D&D were most concerned w/ reaching certain plot points, less so with HOW they got there or the logical/characterization gymnastics needed, so to those of us w/ discerning minds, stuff doesn't make sense & is unsattisfying.

THIS is the exact problem! They wanted Sansa in Winterfell so they made littlefinger dumb, they wanted Tyrion to meet Dany, which meant they had to change the slave story to Jorah being bought as a fighter instead of Tyrion as a "freak" so they had to have Tyrion convince the slaver who was only interested in fighters to buy him too...

Then there's stuff like "Stannis will burn his daughter in the end so lets give him lots of emotional scenes with her showing the audience how much he loves her to make it a bigger shock"

not to mention that characters who were supposed to have a lot of character development got none: I'm mainly talking about Theon here (though i'm sure there's more) who's adwd arc was all about slowly shedding his reek persona and starting the process of solving his identity crisis (what his entire arc has always been about, that includes his clash arc) I mean... in episode 8 he's still in the same state of mind as he was by the beginning of his first reek chapter...

[DolorousNick]

I actually enjoy both the books and show, accept them for the two separate entities that they are, and praise/critique them both according to their own merits/flaws.

I was watching the making of the Daznaks Pit scene on HBO today and couldn't help but marvel at the effort and artistry put into that scene. This was one of the iconic moments from Dany's "Dragons" arc, a storyline that otherwise felt stuck in the mud for some readers (myself included) and needed a jolt of...something to make me care again. I thought the HBO show nailed the scene.

However, they put that scene DIRECTLY after Shireens burning, which was about as horrific as anything ever shown on Game of Thrones (including The Red Wedding). I couldn't find much exhilaration in Dany flying away on Drogon after just watching a father burn his daughter at the stake!

Those two scenes should NOT have been juxtaposed like that because it nullified the impact of the later in a way that no amount of budget dollars or acting quality could have compensated for.