Does Alliser Thorne know about Jon's true parentage?

[bemused]

17 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Agreed mostly, with the caveat that I don’t think his targ loyalties run especially deep. Sure, he supported the, in the Rebellion but I see that more as a practical move (being a Crownlands house) than fierce loyalty. The only reason I say as much is because Thorne never shows any particular closeness or fondness of Maester Aemon, which you would think he would fin he is a Targ loyalist. I suppose my view is more that he WAS a Targ loyalist and now is just bitter and resentful of his lot in life, which he takes out on his young charges by being as mean and unfair to them as he feels the world has been to him

I very much agree with this, generally speaking. Thorne loves to foster resentment in the ranks, but I also detect an overlay of specific Stark hatred. At first, when he seems to be approving of Jon, it's only to make the others look worse by comparison. He knows that this will turn them against Jon, and if left unchecked, likely to bring more than one of them to grief. With Benjen away, Jon was very lucky to have Donal Noye to advise him.

Looking back, Thorne seems to take a lot of satisfaction in being able to call Ned a traitor, as well as getting the desired rise out of Jon.

We don't see Thorne interact with Benjen, but Smallwood was one of Thorne's cronies , and his petulant sense of being entitled to be named First Ranger, implies (to me) that he's resented Benjen for some time and has no respect for Mormont. Could Thorne have been encouraging his rancour ? I think it's pretty likely.

Chett resents Jon, Sam and Mormont for the obvious reason, but I wonder (and we may never know) if someone was fanning the flames of that resentment off-page.

I wonder, because we see Thorne doing just that with Slynt, leading him to conclusions about Jon, but making sure to implicate Benjen as well as Jon in Mormont's murder.

Quote

“He murdered Qhorin just as his fellow turncloaks did Lord Mormont. It would not surprise me to learn that it was all part of the same fell plot. Benjen Stark may well have a hand in all this as well. For all we know, he is sitting in Mance Rayder’s tent even now. You know these Starks, my lord.”

@Seams.. For me, Thorne's name has a very simple interpretation - he is a thorn in Jon's side all through the story so far, from trying to alienate all Jon's training mates, to goading Jon into attacking an officer, to trying to effect Jon's execution (one way or another) numerous times. I think it continues to the present. I believe he will be revealed to be behind the assassination attempt on Jon ... and the editor of the damned pink letter.

Okay, the last two are my predictions - but founded in my reading of the text. 

I don't know why he despises Starks, but I think it's important enough that it will be revealed. I think if it was some ages old dispute or enmity (e.g. Stark/Bolton , Blackwood/Bracken) there would have been some allusion to it by now, if only vague.

So my guess is, it has to be rooted in something more recent, like the events surrounding RR. If he was on the walls at KL, as a knight from the crownlands, was he also in Aerys retinue at Harrenhall? ...If so, maybe he was another admirer of Ashara (maybe even the man who shamed her?) ... Maybe he thought Lyanna a hussy, throwing herself at Rhaegar... Maybe he blamed Brandon for setting the rebellion off. ... Maybe he blamed his lot on Ned for not getting to KL sooner, since Ned (unlike Tywin) would no doubt have offered the opportunity to bend the knee.

I don't think he knows the details of Jon's parentage . 

[Seams]

12 hours ago, bemused said:

.. For me, Thorne's name has a very simple interpretation - he is a thorn in Jon's side all through the story so far, from trying to alienate all Jon's training mates, to goading Jon into attacking an officer, to trying to effect Jon's execution (one way or another) numerous times. I think it continues to the present. I believe he will be revealed to be behind the assassination attempt on Jon ... and the editor of the damned pink letter.

I agree that the wordplay on the Thorne surname includes both thorn and throne. (There's also something going on with Dorne in that mix, with Dorn as the German word for thorn.)

If I'm right about Ser Alliser as a sort of personification of the prickly Iron Throne, his enmity for House Stark might have something to do with the original capitulation of Torrhen Stark to Aegon the Conqueror. As we know, Aegon collected the swords of all warriors conquered by House Targaryen, sent them to King's Landing and had them melted into the Iron Throne. Except for the swords from the North:

The next morning, Torrhen Stark himself crossed the Trident. There upon the south bank of the Trident, he knelt, laid the ancient crown of the Kings of Winter at Aegon's feet, and swore to be his man. He rose as Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North, a king no more. From that day to this day, Torrhen Stark is remembered as the King Who Knelt ... but no Northman left his burned bones beside the Trident, and the swords Aegon collected from Lord Stark and his vassals were not twisted or melted or bent.

(TWOIAF, The Reign of Dragons)

So maybe "the Throne" resents that the North men were not as fully invested in the Iron Throne as bannermen of other regions had been - their swords were never incorporated in the throne.

But the thorn / throne symbolism could also be separate. I've been rereading the Dunk & Egg stories and Dunk's elm tree sigil, along with Ser Arlan of Pennytree, remind me of the importance of all kinds of trees in the many symbols GRRM incorporates in ASOIAF. If I remember correctly, thorn trees in Celtic lore were sacred to the fair folk. Ser Alliser could represent the old gods or the CotF somehow, hiding in a "thorn" and manipulating humans to prevent violations of taboos or to punish them when they do overstep.