Languages in the Series

[Venardhi]

[quote name='fitheach' post='1675280' date='Feb 5 2009, 11.37']I don't know how easy it would be for a writer to create a language, and make it seem real and not silly. Writers aren't linguists, they're writers.
Language is a complex thing to create.
Even the original Star Trek didn't have Klingon in it, that was something that developed later, and I wonder how long it took the creater of Klingon to come up with a realistic set of words and sentences. Tolkien created the languages of Middle Earth out of languages that already exsisted- Finnish, Celtic, Old English, Old Norse, etc...He made up languages from what we had in the world, not just some gibberish. So, if laguages are made for this series, it wouldn't be a stretch to mix Mongolian/Russian/Hugarian or Latin/French/Spanish together and it be considered ok.

The thing is- it takes more than few weeks to do if it's to be done well...[/quote]
Klingon was made up by writers as they went along by referencing what had come before. Eventually enough of it had been written down that a linguist pieced it together into a semi-speakable language.

A linguist is not needed.

"Avalar oum daerog jaeroth therist ef-fir sathorys Oum Daen!" OMG! I'm not even a linguist! How could I possibly come up with some Valyrian sounding gibberish?

They would have to hire a linguist anyways to translate the real languages for them, why not hire a linguist to make up a few lines for various languages as needed? Otherwise just give the task to one of the writers who wants to be responsible for all the Valyrian and Dothraki spoken.

[Aoede]

Nobody is asking GRRM to create a language. Hell, nobody is asking [i]anyone[/i] to create a language. That would entail making up a whole lot of unnecessary vocabulary. All that's needed for the more frequently appearing languages is a set of syntactic rules and whatever words actually are used; for less plot-heavy languages, like Dothraki, all that's needed is a handful of internally consistent [i]phrases[/i].

There are amateur conlangers crawling in every corner of the web. [b]It's not that hard.[/b]

[El-ahrairah]

[quote name='Venardhi' post='1675706' date='Feb 5 2009, 20.27']"Avalar oum daerog jaeroth therist ef-fir sathorys Oum Daen!" OMG! I'm not even a linguist! How could I possibly come up with some Valyrian sounding gibberish?[/quote]
No offense, but that sounds more like Neanderthal - Sindaran Creole than Valyrian.

[Venardhi]

Well we don't know what Valyrian sounds like, but based off of Targaryen names and the few words we do know, Valyrian has some pretty hard sounds in it. Either way, my point is that fake words can work fine.

[fitheach]

[quote name='Venardhi' post='1675706' date='Feb 5 2009, 20.27']"Avalar oum daerog jaeroth therist ef-fir sathorys Oum Daen!" OMG! I'm not even a linguist! How could I possibly come up with some Valyrian sounding gibberish?[/quote]

Exactly. Gibberish. Not a language...

Whats the big deal with using a real language? Why does it have to be made up? All I'm saying is, why take the extra time making up a language when there are plenty of obscure languages already around. Have some people speek aborigonie- or navajo- they're obscure enough that very few on this planet would understand and the language is already there, no making up needed...

[Venardhi]

Because all languages are gibberish if you don't understand them. I could spend a lot of time and figure out exactly what all those words mean, in what order and context they're used, etc. etc and then it WOULD be a real phrase from a real language. but it isn't necessary.

I've seen movies in dozens of languages, I know Dutch songs, I have Hungarian, Russian and Chinese friends, I hear Japanese and Indian and Farsi nearly every day and I've studied latin. Most of the people who watch the series will have at least one other language in their life, even if they don't speak it.

Seeking out some obscure language to make sure no one has heard it, then hiring a translator to work on the scripts and teach the actors pronunciation is just overkill and I promise you someone out there watching will know it or at least recognize it and be distracted by it.

Tell me what BENEFIT there is to using a real world language in the context of the show itself? In what way does it make the series better? More compelling? More substantial? It doesn't. It is a lazy way out for those lacking imagination.

How much do you think we'll actually hear of these languages? We don't need a fully developed language for a couple lines every few episodes, we just need those lines, which can be gibberish and not be any different from if they designed an entire language with those words in it.

You're looking for problems where none exist. More often than not, the simplest answer is the best one, and in this case the simplest solution is to just make it up.

[fitheach]

[quote name='Venardhi' post='1676837' date='Feb 6 2009, 13.11']Because all languages are gibberish if you don't understand them. I could spend a lot of time and figure out exactly what all those words mean, in what order and context they're used, etc. etc and then it WOULD be a real phrase from a real language. but it isn't necessary.

I've seen movies in dozens of languages, I know Dutch songs, I have Hungarian, Russian and Chinese friends, I hear Japanese and Indian and Farsi nearly every day and I've studied latin. Most of the people who watch the series will have at least one other language in their life, even if they don't speak it.

Seeking out some obscure language to make sure no one has heard it, then hiring a translator to work on the scripts and teach the actors pronunciation is just overkill and I promise you someone out there watching will know it or at least recognize it and be distracted by it.

Tell me what BENEFIT there is to using a real world language in the context of the show itself? In what way does it make the series better? More compelling? More substantial? It doesn't. It is a lazy way out for those lacking imagination.

How much do you think we'll actually hear of these languages? We don't need a fully developed language for a couple lines every few episodes, we just need those lines, which can be gibberish and not be any different from if they designed an entire language with those words in it.

You're looking for problems where none exist. More often than not, the simplest answer is the best one, and in this case the simplest solution is to just make it up.[/quote]


Oy.

Ok Venardhi- you've just browbeated me into thinking a made-up jibberish that will take as long to create and teach an actor to pronounce, is better...

Thank you.

By the way, language isn't just words put together. Anyone who speeks more than one language knows this, ask your bilingual friends.

Lets move on. Obviously some think making up a language is better, and some don't.

[Venardhi]

[quote name='fitheach' post='1680863' date='Feb 9 2009, 18.51']Ok Venardhi- you've just browbeated me into thinking a made-up jibberish that will take as long to create and teach an actor to pronounce, is better...

Thank you.[/quote]
You're welcome.

And language [i]IS[/i] just noises with structure and defined meaning. What else would it be?

[fitheach]

Yes with the emphasis on the structure and defined meaning. Not jibberish, language is NOT just words thrown together. There is history of development and influences, slang and proper grammar. It goes deeper than making up sounds. I'm sorry you don't seem to understand this.

Et mein votenia ladi od? A linguist would not approve.

But if you want to have GRRM just slap together words to make some languages, see what he says. Maybe he agrees with you.

We agree to disagree, now lets move on...

How should these languages sound- made up or no, they need a feel. Gutteral for one, lilting for another, on the tip of the tongue with a rrrroll of the rrrr's???

What language will sound what way?

I always imagined Valyrian sounding scandinavian-ish.

Dothraki sounding Hungarian-ish...

[fitheach]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1675559' date='Feb 5 2009, 17.57']That's an amusing criterion to use in [i]defense[/i] of having people speaking latin with "valar morghulis" mixed in....the very height of halfassery.[/quote]


I didn't say have them speek latin. I said do what JRR Tolkien did and mix a few languages to make one language. As he did with Quenya, Dwarvish, and Black Speech.

English is a perfect representation of mixed languages too ya know....

I think some folks just looove the idea of making up a language. Sitting with their friends and creating words,deciding what the definition will be.....Awesome!

Sounds fun. :bs:

[Aoede]

[quote name='fitheach' post='1681724' date='Feb 10 2009, 14.04']Yes with the emphasis on the structure and defined meaning. Not jibberish, language is NOT just words thrown together. There is history of development and influences, slang and proper grammar. It goes deeper than making up sounds. I'm sorry you don't seem to understand this.[/quote]


The point is, [b][color="#FF0000"]they do not have to create an [i]entire[/i] language[/color][/b]. All that's needed is the grammar, and [i]just enough[/i] vocab to cover what they need to say. And since nobody is grading them on how natural their slapdash conalmostlang is, the vocabulary-creating bit of it [i]can[/i] be pure gibberish, as long as it doesn't break the phonological constraints that they set in the beginning.

[Venardhi]

[quote name='fitheach' post='1681724' date='Feb 10 2009, 11.04']Yes with the emphasis on the structure and defined meaning. Not jibberish, language is NOT just words thrown together. There is history of development and influences, slang and proper grammar. It goes deeper than making up sounds. I'm sorry you don't seem to understand this.[/quote]
I understand perfectly that real life languages have a history and have evolved due to many factors throughout the ages. My point is that when you really get down to it, a language is just a fancier way of grunting at each other around the fire. ASL is a language without sounds, with hand motions standing in for them. those hand motions were essentially 'invented' as "hand gibberish" based on the structure of English. I'm suggesting something like this, building the necessary vocabulary from scratch but with structure and slowly building a dictionary with whatever "gibberish" they invent for each episode.

AS for how they sound, I can't really think of real life examples that suit perfectly. Saying "a mixture of Latin and Ancient Egyptian" for Valyrian doesn't really work because in my head I 'hear' that combo very differently than you might.

the Dothraki might be like a harsher version of Swahili. Like Swahili being spoken by someone badly with a strong eastern eurpean accent.

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='fitheach' post='1681784' date='Feb 10 2009, 14.45']I didn't say have them speek latin. I said do what JRR Tolkien did and mix a few languages to make one language. As he did with Quenya, Dwarvish, and Black Speech.[/quote]
That is [i]exactly[/i] what other posters in this thread have been pushing, though.

If you are advocating a Tolkien approach, then I doubt many people would find it objectionable, though it would hardly be necessary to put that much effort into it. The bottom line is that GRRM has [i]already[/i] created several words for Dothraki and Valyrian...and those words are frankly gibberish.... and an expanded language should be harmonious with them.

[Sparq]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1682539' date='Feb 11 2009, 06.52']That is [i]exactly[/i] what other posters in this thread have been pushing, though.

If you are advocating a Tolkien approach, then I doubt many people would find it objectionable, though it would hardly be necessary to put that much effort into it. The bottom line is that GRRM has [i]already[/i] created several words for Dothraki and Valyrian...and those words are frankly gibberish.... and an expanded language should be harmonious with them.[/quote]
What can be done is to hire someone professional to create/expand Dothraki and Valyrian, based on what is in the books.
For instance for the games Jade Empire and Dragon Age the game company BioWare hired a [url="http://www.expressnews.ualberta.ca/article.cfm?id=6390"]linguist to create several fantasy languages[/url].

[Atenmien]

Wow, so many people are angry. Relaaaax :) I'm sure that whatever the people in charge decide, it'll be an awesome show.

Venardhi, I like your definition of language. Every language is really just a mixture of sounds that are supposed to represent what we experience in life, be it every-day objects or complex phenomenon. I speak five languages fluently, and a few others not-so-fluently, and I think that intuition comes in strongly when you learn a new language. Helped me learn, anyway. There's a certain feeling behind each word that I think you need to learn to translate into something meaningful if you're going to be successful at learning to understand foreign tongues.

That said, I think it shouldn't be a problem for an actor to make what they say sound "real" if they just put that same meaning behind the word, no matter in what language it is. Does it matter to the actor whether he or she says "death" or "mort" or "dauði" or an actual made-up word? (A made-up word that will become a very real word in a made-up language...) Not if they're a skilled actor. Does it matter to the outcome of the show? Absolutely. I want the show to look and sound as authentic as possible.

Besides, languages are so fun, it would add the richness of the show to have someone make up the few words that are needed.

[fitheach]

I'm not angry- I just find made up languages ridiculous. That's it. That's the truth.

We don't know if the world of Westeros is Earth, as Middle Earth was Earth with a mixture of earth languages. So I thought a mixture of Earth languages would suffice and make sense.

That's all.

And just so you know, ASL was created from sign that was already out there- that organically happened (as languages do) not from English- and was accepted as the language for the hearing impared in the U.S. when it gained enough momentum to be considered the official sign language. So it evolved as languages do, naturally.

I'm not saying create a fully formed language, just something that doesn't sound jibberish and silly- which alot of made up languages do. It would bring down the production and make it feel like a lowend fantasy series, which we all would abhor.

Peace.

[Atenmien]

You've got a point there. Made-up languages can sound awful, but I think they can also sound awesome. I agree that it shouldn't sound like complete gibberish. I think that the few words that George R.R. Martin has already made up have a nice ring to them, and gives us some idea of what the languages are supposed to sound like. And I'm pretty sure GRRM didn't just put some random letters together, the words he wrote are inspired by his own knowledge of the world's languages. That's probably why they sound so "natural". I don't have anything against creating the aSoIaF world's languages by drawing elements from our own world's languages. Just not mathematically. "Two parts Latin with a dash of Swedish, but with the same grammatical rules as .... etc etc" seems like it'll just end up sounding really off. It's fine to be inspired by the world, but cutting it up and putting it back together all wrong/jumbled... I dunno.

If you're looking for natural evolution, well... Dothraki could evolve naturally in its creators mind ;) Hehe.

[Aoede]

Fitheach, exactly how many conlangs have you looked at? "Making a new language" is NOT equivalent to "using gibberish". They are fundamentally opposed. I know that many lazy SFF authors will try putting bits of "language" into their books, but just because the author claims that it is language does not mean that the author has actually bothered to give it any semblance of a unique grammatical structure, let alone (as more nuanced conlangs will) linguistically embodying unique aspects of the created culture.

To call conlangs "gibberish" is to call SFF "poorly-written escapist fantasies". Do not judge something by the worst examples of its type.

[Venardhi]

Aoede, the point that I and several others are making, is that a full language isn't necessary, and so the use of a pre-existing language (which I am fundamentally opposed to) or a fully developed invented language are both over-complicating things. If we only ever get a dozen lines of Dothraki, mostly in the backgrounds, before Dany catches on to it and starts 'translating' for us. . . what is wrong with scripted gibberish? The writers can come up with a basic structure and write down the words they use for future reference, but a real "language" is adding work where it isn't needed. The actual end result of getting dialogue from a fully developed language or just making up those lines as they go would be essentially the same from the viewer's perspective.

Edit: Looking back in the thread, it seems we agree for the most part. Forgive me for singling you out.

[fitheach]

[quote name='Aoede' post='1684377' date='Feb 12 2009, 12.36']Fitheach, exactly how many conlangs have you looked at? "Making a new language" is NOT equivalent to "using gibberish". They are fundamentally opposed. I know that many lazy SFF authors will try putting bits of "language" into their books, but just because the author claims that it is language does not mean that the author has actually bothered to give it any semblance of a unique grammatical structure, let alone (as more nuanced conlangs will) linguistically embodying unique aspects of the created culture.

To call conlangs "gibberish" is to call SFF "poorly-written escapist fantasies". Do not judge something by the worst examples of its type.[/quote]


Well obviously if I'm reading these novels I like SFF, no?
Trust me, I've read enough science fiction/ fantasy to create my own language.
I've read the classics and the crap.
It's not the stuff that's in novels that unnerves me- it's the "languages" I've heard in sci/fi movies that bothers me. It's the [i]sound[/i] of some made up languages. Some sound right and are done well and some sound ridiculous.
It's like they had some bad conlanger (not all are equal folks) offer to make one up for free and it was all wrong.
I just want it done right, who doesn't? Since G.R.R.M from his own admission isn't interested in creating a language-he has enough on his plate, who will?
And, will it be done well or will it be wrong on all levels?

I don't want to offend creaters of language.I just don't feel that it would be out of character to have a earthish language.

That is my opinion. Some share it, some don't.

I believe though, that fans of the novels won't accept a botched together language as background noise. I think it will bother them. But maybe I'm wrong that the fans'll care that much.

If the producers decide on a created language, who will do this undertaking? I know there are many conlangers out there- but who are the known greats?