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[Book Spoilers] EP 209 Discussion

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My previous posts already covered that more than well enough. He had to march those impetuous bastards to King's Landing or lose them. You think they'd follow a King who would choose to just sit on his ass after the glory they'd been promised by Renly? You lose and are clearly too stupid to understand base logic or apply the details in the story to your 'opinions'. Stop trolling.

I'm certain you wouldn't be here moaning about Renly if he had shoved a sword through Stannis (which was his intention) and going all 'uhh he killed his brother he's BAD' so you might as well just shut up.

Edited by StannisandDaeny

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I guess your definition of worked is different than mine. I think using black magic to kill your brother so you can take all his bannerman to die in KL is failing.

that's not really a fair statement since you are looking at it in hindsight. He did not take them there to die, he took them there to win and - even with the wildfire - it was working. The only thing that saved KL was the Tyrells. As was stated, if Renly's Ghost gets there maybe even just a few minutes later, they are attacking walls and not mens backs.

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You are the one pumping him as a great king and now you are saying he is a grey character. Honestly the books are full of grey characters I just don't even think Stannis is one of them. He is evil by most every definition, at least in my mind.

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My previous posts already covered that more than well enough. He had to march those impetuous bastards to King's Landing or lose them. You think they'd follow a King who would choose to just sit on his ass after the glory they'd been promised by Renly? You lose and are clearly too stupid to understand base logic or apply the details in the story to your 'opinions'. Stop trolling.

I'm certain you wouldn't be here moaning about Renly if he had shoved a sword through Stannis (which was his intention) and going all 'uhh he killed his brother he's BAD' so you might as well just shut up.

Easy on the personal comments.

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It's okay, he started by calling me a prick some posts ago. By now the 'level' of his posts and argumentation has sunk so low that I'm positive he's just trolling and I'm just trying to end the 'conversation'.

He is evil by most every definition, at least in my mind.

And not in mine, or most people. Most people see the Red Wedding Alliance and Ramsay Snow as evil, the exact same people Stannis is fighting. GRRM called Stannis 'perhaps the only true hero of the series.' So we have strong reasons to believe Stannis is a grey character whereas you only have 'hurr I don't like him' going for you.

Edited by StannisandDaeny

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that's not really a fair statement since you are looking at it in hindsight. He did not take them there to die, he took them there to win and - even with the wildfire - it was working. The only thing that saved KL was the Tyrells. As was stated, if Renly's Ghost gets there maybe even just a few minutes later, they are attacking walls and not mens backs.

that is a very fair statement since you declared how his plan worked so well not fighting Renly and getting his bannerman. That was step one and the next step ended in epic failure. So clearly his plan didn't work. I mean these are not grey subjects.

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Stannis didn't burn any children. He thought it was a good thing to do for Davos to get Edric to safety and continued to trust and respect Davos' council.

that is a very fair statement since you declared how his plan worked so well not fighting Renly and getting his bannerman. That was step one and the next step ended in epic failure. So clearly his plan didn't work. I mean these are not grey subjects.

Even a good plan sometimes doesn't work because of external factors. Robb Stark had a good plan to lure Tywin towards him and then have Edmure cut off his retreat, but instead Edmure held off Tywin despite his orders and ruined Robb's plan much in the same way Stannis' men also failed him. Does that make Robb Stark an idiot? I don't think so. Nor does it make Stannis an idiot. If he had just sat at his castle, he would have lost. His 20 000 men were worth nothing if he didn't use them and would have left him if he didn't attack King's Landing, and he got very close to achieving his goal. No one could see those 80 000 men coming, and no one would have defeated them if they were in Stannis' stead.

I don't disagree about Ramsey but because others are evil doesn't make Stannis good.

Stannis is only fighting because there are people like Ramsay who would deny him his throne. If they didn't, Stannis could and would rule peacefully and would make a far better King than Robert or Aerys. Or Joffrey. Plus Stannis is the only one who has made an effort to provide defence against the Others who are probably worse than all the human enemies.

Edited by StannisandDaeny

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Yes thank you. And why did Robert not like him and want to spite him. Because he is a miserable S.O.B. that no one gets along with.

Yes.

Stannis is not a pleasant guy. Boho, that's doesn't make everyone else not a traitor.

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Robert on the other hand, was a quite merry and pleasant fellow. So pleasant, in fact, that he became blind to his enemies, allowed corruption like Janos Slynt's deeds to spread without another word and caused the Kingdom to become bankrupt. I'm sure we need our Kings to be pleasant!

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Maybe I'm the only one that thinks using a shadow demon to kill your brother makes you evil. Maybe I'm the only one who doesn't see what triumphant battle planning Stannis has ever used. Maybe I'm the only one that thinks you need to be capable at diplomacy to be a good king. And maybe I'm the only one who thinks burning people alive for power makes you evil.

It is Melisandre that is evil. Stannis is just rigid and determined to take what is his by using whatever tools at his disposal. Stannis is not evil but has been corrupted by it.

Edited by Jory's Shade

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It is kind of odd how the episode made Stannis appear to be the villain. It makes me wonder if they aren't trying to frame the show in a way so it's easier for people to root for certain characters as heroes. Stannis to me is the most heroic character in the series.

The thing I find most attractive about Martin's work is the duality that is presented in each character. That duality however doesn't lend itself to the traditional construct of protagonist versus antagonist. I hope we don't see the show try to make him the uber bad guy.

But, considering GRRMs involvement in writing the episode, maybe Stannis will transform into the villain. I hope not.

Edited by TheDarkOne

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Yes it can. Sending thousands to their graves and destroying your future goals in the process, being totally oblivious to and uncaring of the lives of those who follow you and those who should follow you is worse. Everyone in the series prays for divine intervention and magic assistance, the only real difference is that Stannis chose the right gun and his magic actually works. Shadow magic is not necessarily evil: it revived Beric Dondarrion, for instance. To say 'it's bad simply because it's magic' is bullshit. Westeros is a fantasy realm. And it does not sell your soul. Are you one of Varys' little birds, perhaps, imitating his speech?

Berric and Lady Stoneheart are abominations not unlike a Wight. The "right gun" is Dany's Dragons. Get right with that. The good magic comes from The Children of the Forest. I'll take Bran's magic and Dany's magic over shadow craft anyday. Know that. Conjuring up shadow beasts and using dweomers to shapeshift and make faux lightbringers are weak parlor tricks compared to Dragon fire.

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GRRM called Stannis 'perhaps the only true hero of the series.' So we have strong reasons to believe Stannis is a grey character whereas you only have 'hurr I don't like him' going for you.

Please direct me to this interview so that I can read it for myself. Thanks,

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It does make it so he is not Lord of Storms End was my point.

No, it doesn't. Not being the lord of Storm's end or a pleasant guy doesn't change the fact that as Ned says he is Robert's one true heir. And therefore, Robert dying makes him King.

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Berric and Lady Stoneheart are abominations not unlike a Wight. The "right gun" is Dany's Dragons. Get right with that. The good magic comes from The Children of the Forest. I'll take Bran's magic and Dany's magic over shadow craft anyday. Know that. Conjuring up shadow beasts and using dweomers to shapeshift and make faux lightbringers are weak parlor tricks compared to Dragon fire.

I'm prone to agree on Stoneheart, but she was given life by Beric and not by a Red Priest. Beric did a lot of good, that's why he has the people's support. Dany's dragons are awesome but not as effective a weapon as the Shadows if you look at them from a 'potential innocent victims' and 'control' scale. The Shadows take out 1 target without danger of hitting another, the Dragons go on wild hunts and eat people's cattle and perhaps even children if we can believe the claims of the man in ADWD. They are definitely the most powerful, but a great liability as well and they are only prone to doing good because Dany is prone to doing good. That said I hope the dragons will turn out to be a force for good, I just don't take anything for granted with George.

That wasn't really my point though as Stannis had no access to Dragons, he just picked the religion that had the best results for him and his bannermen so far. The Seven haven't showed any real power yet, but you can bet on it the Lannisters would like the Warrior to strike their enemies down if they believed he could.

I'm very skeptical about the Children of the Forest. I don't think they're as good as they say and I don't think Bran wants to become an abomination like Bloodraven... and I don't think they'll give him a choice.

You'll have to look for that interview yourself as I don't save / remember the location of every single interview GRRM ever did across his wide-spanning career. I'm not going to make something like that up, but if you won't take my word for it then fine.

edit: this one gets close though.

http://asoiaf.wester...ording-to-grrm/

Edited by StannisandDaeny

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I read that quote and agree. Stannis is righteous. I wouldn't equate that to him being a true hero. I categorize Bran, Brienne, and Jon as true heroes. I also do not consider Stannis evil; rather, he has been corrupted by evil. He was very pious prior to turning to the Lord of Light and has become a great zealot for R'hllor since his conversion. Stannis is not a "believer" like Matthos Seaworth, but he understands the Red God gives him the power he will need to win the Game of Thrones given his inferior troop and naval position. I get that and do not fault Stannis for using all the tools at his disposal to take what is his by right, in his mind at least. I just am not willing to ignore that it is the wrong path.

I feel the Red God is evil and corrupts righteous people with the lies it shows in its flames. Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of Thorros but consider him a rogue priest that is fearful of his visions and reticant to use the power of the Lord of Light, unlike Melisandre or the Red Priests in Volantis and Braavos. At the end of the day, I think the Lord of Light is the Lord of Lies and not a source of good.

Dragons are pure magic made mortal. They are the most devastating power in the world that must be tamed to protect the world from pure uncontrolled magic being unleashed. Dany is the key to controlling this power. That is why she is the mother of dragons. I cannot wait to see what happens with Euron's horn and how that will effect Dany's dragons.

I too have reservations about the Children of the Forest, but I am not sure I consider Bloodraven an abomination. I will have to see how the remaining Dunk & Egg stories and the final books come out, but I think there is still much to learn about how and why Bloodraven has become what he was when he met Bran. What we do know is that Greenseers and The Children seem to have more accurate visions than the Lord of Light's lies, and that GRRM has a grand plan for Bran. Also, the North still has the old magic, e.g. direwolves and giants, so that is why I am putting my skeptical eggs in the Children's basket.

Hell, maybe Tywin and Cersei are right: the gods are just cruel, not just the seven...

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