Snow // new aegon

[Miriamele]

Although your theory is simpler then the whole baby swapping (and potentially better for that reason) the one thing it falls down on (I think) is that Tyrion does not make any note what-so-ever about Aegon and Jon looking alike.

I know they aren't identical twins and that it is possible to have non-identical twins of the same gender, but I'm pretty sure there is still some sort of familial resemblance.

Like between Sansa and Arya?

It's been my theory all along that Jon and YG could be Lyanna's twins. I'm not sure Varys&Co know that though. What if they believe they have a fake who would be their puppet then they find out he's actually Rhaegar's legitimate son?

[Melonica Stormborn]

Like between Sansa and Arya?

It's been my theory all along that Jon and YG could be Lyanna's twins. I'm not sure Varys&Co know that though. What if they believe they have a fake who would be their puppet then they find out he's actually Rhaegar's legitimate son?

If it's like Sansa and Arya it's a good precedent on how siblings can look very different in the ASoIaF world especially for Starks. While the Baratheon look is very strong, the Stark features doesn't seem to be that way; only Arya looked like a Stark and the rest have Tully looks. It is possible then for Lyanna to have twins of different basic features but with subtle similarities that we can only easily see if both are side by side.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

When I first heard this I had a crackpot that Jon would end up becoming a Darth Vader of some sorts after surviving Bowen Marsh and co's stabbing, but the twins is more plausible. That is if he survives, plus I'm not too familiar with Star Wars so I may be taking it the wrong way.

Yeah that comment from Alfie Allen has had me thinking since I read it. I was considering it simply as a hint that his true parentage was hidden, and that his father may have been a bad guy...

To put the "Star Wars" situation in perspective I can elaborate. And actually i believe the exact quote was "It's like a luke skywalker situation" so we'll look at that.

-Luke was born in secret with his twin sister

-Luke's father and the general public were told the mother died before giving childbirth.

-Luke's father killed his mother (injured her badly, it was said she should live but had a broken heart and has lost the will to fight or something, and is of course weakened from childbirth)

-Lukes mother dies giving birth

-Luke and his twin are seperated at birth and given to foster families who protect their secret and never reveal the truth, even to them.

-Luke craves adventure but only leaves his homeworld when his foster parents are brutally murdered by his father (thought neither knows who the other is)

-Their fates pit them against each other, and only when they first cross blades does Vader reveal the truth (only recently discovered by himself and the emperor) "Luke, I am your father"

So based on that perhaps Jon Snow will fight Roose Bolton, and he'll be like "Jon, I am your father" LOL.

No its obviously not an exact reimagining he just said "it is like..." so the comment does'nt hint at much beyond the fact that Jon doesn't know who his real father is and it will be revealed later, but interesting similarity in the twins and this theory...

oh wait two more interesting points...

-Luke was raised by his father's extended family and not told much about his true father. The person protecting them felt that this is the place Vader wouldn't return to due to his own personal tragedy. He was raised as a simple farmboy, status not much different from a bastard.

-Luke's twin sister was hidden in plain sight as she was raised as a princess by someone loyal to the lost order of the jedi (jedi order a parallel to destroyed Targ dynasty? Is Aemon our Obi wan kenobi? LOL)

[Ciazio]

Yeah that comment from Alfie Allen has had me thinking since I read it. I was considering it simply as a hint that his true parentage was hidden, and that his father may have been a bad guy...

To let escape that comment was a bad mistake for good Alfie. He needs to be... punished...

Reek, Reek, it rhymes with weak.............................. :devil:

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

To let escape that comment was a bad mistake for good Alfie. He needs to be... punished...

Reek, Reek, it rhymes with weak.............................. :devil:

LOL he'll be punished next season...

w/ endless torture scenes and prostetics to show flayed limbs, prob have to lose weight as well to transform into Reek

Yeah, if he HAD to go to GRRM and ask this question, I kinda wish he had just kept it to himself. Can't stay mad at him tho he's a great theon and had a standout performance this season.

[Melonica Stormborn]

Yeah that comment from Alfie Allen has had me thinking since I read it. I was considering it simply as a hint that his true parentage was hidden, and that his father may have been a bad guy...

To put the "Star Wars" situation in perspective I can elaborate. And actually i believe the exact quote was "It's like a luke skywalker situation" so we'll look at that.

-Luke was born in secret with his twin sister

-Luke's father and the general public were told the mother died before giving childbirth.

-Luke's father killed his mother (injured her badly, it was said she should live but had a broken heart and has lost the will to fight or something, and is of course weakened from childbirth)

-Lukes mother dies giving birth

-Luke and his twin are seperated at birth and given to foster families who protect their secret and never reveal the truth, even to them.

-Luke craves adventure but only leaves his homeworld when his foster parents are brutally murdered by his father (thought neither knows who the other is)

-Their fates pit them against each other, and only when they first cross blades does Vader reveal the truth (only recently discovered by himself and the emperor) "Luke, I am your father"

So based on that perhaps Jon Snow will fight Roose Bolton, and he'll be like "Jon, I am your father" LOL.

No its obviously not an exact reimagining he just said "it is like..." so the comment does'nt hint at much beyond the fact that Jon doesn't know who his real father is and it will be revealed later, but interesting similarity in the twins and this theory...

oh wait two more interesting points...

-Luke was raised by his father's extended family and not told much about his true father. The person protecting them felt that this is the place Vader wouldn't return to due to his own personal tragedy. He was raised as a simple farmboy, status not much different from a bastard.

-Luke's twin sister was hidden in plain sight as she was raised as a princess by someone loyal to the lost order of the jedi (jedi order a parallel to destroyed Targ dynasty? Is Aemon our Obi wan kenobi? LOL)

Thanks for this! if R+L= J is true and Young Griff is his twin, it would be a good parallel that Jon is raised with the Starks and Young Griff is raised to eventually become king. I would not discount the possibility that Rhaegar is alive and making himself Darth Vader, but that is too far fetched :D

[Ciazio]

Thanks for this! if R+L= J is true and Young Griff is his twin, it would be a good parallel that Jon is raised with the Starks and Young Griff is raised to eventually become king. I would not discount the possibility that Rhaegar is alive and making himself Darth Vader, but that is too far fetched :D

Oh, well, some say that Mance is Rhaegar, making him "the bad guy" who wants to destroy "the Repubblic". I don't believe it, it's quite impossible, but maybe Mance is going to play Darth Vader's role without being Rhaegar.

[Melonica Stormborn]

Oh, well, some say that Mance is Rhaegar, making him "the bad guy" who wants to destroy "the Repubblic". I don't believe it, it's quite impossible, but maybe Mance is going to play Darth Vader's role without being Rhaegar.

I agree with your sig though. It's a big leap to say that Mance = Rhaegar. The only similarity I know of is that they like to sing, unless (and this is extreme crackpottery) Rhaegar is warging Mance. In that case we have another Darth Vader and Luke parallel (Jedi = skinchanger). Even as I type I can't help but laugh since I haven't heard of a Targ that is also a warg. It seems to be a primarily Northern trait.

Just like that I have opened a can of worms.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Thanks for this! if R+L= J is true and Young Griff is his twin, it would be a good parallel that Jon is raised with the Starks and Young Griff is raised to eventually become king. I would not discount the possibility that Rhaegar is alive and making himself Darth Vader, but that is too far fetched :D

lol, That would mean that when Anakin/Vader (Rhaegar) was defeated on the trident he was left for dead, but was only mostly dead... Laying next to the trident (as anakin lay by a river of lava) the emperor (Varys/Marwy/Qyburn) comes to recover the body, and uses the latest technology (magic) to keep him alive. :eek: LOL this is kinda fun.

Ok so where is Rhaegar now you ask... couldn't be mance no similarities unless glamoured... Rhaegar = Darkstar! Now you know why he tried to cut myrcella's head off, revenge for his daughter! :cool4:

[Melonica Stormborn]

lol, That would mean that when Anakin/Vader (Rhaegar) was defeated on the trident he was left for dead, but was only mostly dead... Laying next to the trident (as anakin lay by a river of lava) the emperor (Varys/Marwy/Qyburn) comes to recover the body, and uses the latest technology (magic) to keep him alive. :eek: LOL this is kinda fun.

Ok so where is Rhaegar now you ask... couldn't be mance no similarities unless glamoured... Rhaegar = Darkstar! Now you know why he tried to cut myrcella's head off, revenge for his daughter! :cool4:

You're right this is fun. LOL

Then whoever ressurected Rhaegar made him wear a glamor to hide his appearance. I'd like to think though that Rhaegar is still trying to fulfill the prophecy if we assume this crackpottery is true.

[mrlukeduke]

Crazy, I've had this theory buzzing around my head since last week. Wondered if others had thought of it too and BOOM... Google search says yes they have!

Anyway, I rather think that even the great Varys was duped here – by Ned and possibly Ashara too. There are lots of possibilities here (I've written down five entirely unique scenarios based on there being twins, figuring out who knows what pieces of the puzzle) -- and I think Ned might even have lied about Aegon being the son of R&L to Ashara as well. Perhaps he told Ashara that it was Rhaegar and Elia's true-born (who had in fact died) that Rhaegar had... smuggled out of King's Landing and kept with Lianna. He has to cover his tracks; he promised Lianna he'd keep them safe. He can only pull off one bastard, and the one who looks like a Stark! Also, in a sense, it kind of takes the pressure of Ned. He's not the only one with a Targ heir, he can lie low for a few years. And it sort of, in a way, protects Lianna's legacy. Because in a sense it's better people believing she was "abducted" than anyone finding out they were in love or trying to produce the PtwP (Ice & Fire).

Maybe Ashara just wanted a babe to hold after tragically losing her own (assuming hers isn't Aurane Waters or Darkstar -- very speculative!). She really was, I believe, grieving her many losses either way.

If this theory holds I'd also believe Ashara is alive in Essos, and that is probably one of the reasons Barristan Selmy is in Essos with Daenerys, plot-wise. A possible reunion or tragedy. (It might also be connected to the love-betrayal prophecy Dany has). I'm alluding to Septa Lemore here of course as well.

So they concocted the story that Ashara jumped into the river (no body found!). (Somehow she evades attention, hmm). She then flees to Essos with Targ loyalist support. Varys? Illyrio? At what point do they come in and what do they really know? Maybe they've no idea about Jon. Maybe the really do think Aegon is Elia's boy.

Love this theory. It means, among other things, that the dragon – most goddamn assuredly – has three heads! Jon, Aegon, and their aunt Dany!

But how can we explain the whole 'beware the fake (mummer's) dragon' thing? It's easier if Jon or Aegon are faketey fakepants. Now assuming both are 'dragons', who's the fraudster? I suppose it could be anyone claiming Targ bloodline, i.e. even Stannis.

Or are Aegon/Jon fake because they were born out of wedlock? But then why only ONE fakeypants? Or, are we going to see yet another Fake Targ appearance in TWoW as a last distraction from the Big Reveal? Hmmm.

[Daemul]

This theory that fAegon and Jon are twins is far more believable then the baby-switch one which would have needed over a dozen things out of Varys control to go his way.

[otherbeef]

One point. No one knew the eggs would hatch. Everyone in the know world had thought dragons extinct. The last one was seen 100 + years ago before Dany.

even if the eggs never hatched, they were still valuable enough to buy whole armies, ships, etc. they are worth a fortune. you don't hand over a fortune to your enemy

[mrlukeduke]

I'm starting to think that – assuming that this theory actually holds of course – that actually Eddard Stark sort of out-duped everybody with his stubborn secrecy about Jon, possibly lying to everyone about who Aegon really was (Jon's twin through Lianna, not Elia's boy). It'd be quite the ironic twist especially after Varys' haughty speech to him in the dungeons. Maybe Varys doesn't know everything. In fact I'm quite sure he's perfectly fallible like everyone else.

(Even so I still think Ned is generally naive and reckless – taking his kids south, assuming he thought he'd be safe at "Robert's" own court. Ned isn't a "conscious" player in The Game, but he ends up being a crucial piece not only in The Game of Thrones but more importantly in The Song, thanks to what he's achieved by raising Jon Snow).

[AshKing]

Yeah its the Ashara bit thats got me. Isnt Serra meant to be some targaryen bloodline, think it might be to do with the blackfyre theory but I think it seems more likely, I think Aegon is Illyrios son (or maybe an adoption which would still kinda work with your theory) with Serra..

Assuming Illyrio 'took in' aegon.. If you make lemore ashara, serra just serra, aegon could still be rhaegars by lyanna too, and if Doran is in contact with ashara (and he has been with illyrio and varys too, as we know through the viserys/danaerys thing) he could still be in on it and it all still kinda works.

Im still kinda sceptical about the whole twins thing to be honest though.

(In reply to the first big theory on the thread - havnt figured that quote thing yet haa)

[mrlukeduke]

Yeah I think Serra is just... Serra. Obviously an influential character on Illyrio that we might hear more of, or not. Ashara seems vaguely to match the description of Lemore though.

But it might not be Ashara. She may have perished for true at Starfall. Perhaps Wylla? Well, we've no corroboration for it either way. But the theory would lend weight to the idea that there was another child there, Aegon, who had to be smuggled out of Westeros (and Starfall is a port town, with fair access south then east across to Essos).

I'm curious about Wylla Manderley who for whatever reason bravely spoke up for the Starks and condemned the Freys when all her other, elder family did not (during Davos' visit to White Harbour). Who is she?! Just Manderley's outspoken daughter? Maybe. Just seems like a curious coincidence that she's called Wylla and has that particular role at that particular time, especially since we know Eddard visited White Harbour after Starfall.

Assuming this theory holds ofc, can anyone put those pieces together better than I?