Aegon is a Targaryen Not Illyrio's son. (Warning: common sense that may hurt your feelings ahead)

[Meddler]

I have a hard time deciding one way or the other about whether Aegon is real. On the one hand, most of the evidence that he isn't is pretty circumstantial and has to do with potential holes in the idea that he is legitimate. On the other hand, his story is somewhat weak--the only people who can truly verify it are a cunning spymaster and a foriegn magister. It's almost a perfect scenario for giving an imposter a strong claim, as long as you have one that you can pass off as a Targaryen (and between the Blackfyers, Aerion Brightflame, and other random people in the free cities known to have Targaryen looking traits, it's well established this wouldn't necessarily be difficult). Plus its place in the narrative is quite out of left field, it's not like some great mystery that was unraveled. Everyone thought Aegon was dead, and then all of a sudden he wasn't. Something feels stylistically off about that. And the mummer's dragon references do cast some viable support for speculation that there is a "fake Targaryen" out there, though that's obviously designed to be cryptic.

Either way, this is one of those storylines that I have doubts about from just about every angle, and I'm pretty much just resigned to seeing how it plays out rather than trying to decipher some hidden code.

FWIW, I tentatively agree with you that the idea that if he is fake, he's Illyrio's son is based almost purely on speculative grounds based on some vague nostolgia Illyrio seems to feel about Serra.

[ronm]

Just to be fair.. Illyrio wasn't always so fat.

Tyrion sees the statue of the young Illyrion in the fountain at his manse in Pentos and he was fit and deadly then.

It's the baby swap thing that I have the most trouble with, but then I also have trouble with Ned being able to keep the biggest secret in Westeros from Varys, so...

I also find it hard to believe that Ned / Rhaegar / Lyanna kept the secret from Varys. At the same time, who says they did? Varys may know about it, but he may not care either.

[ronm]

You make very good points about Tyrion believing that Aegon is the real thing, but I don't find any evidence that this makes it true.

Tyrion also believes that Jon is Ned's bastard son, but I personally don't believe this is true.

I'm on the fence about whether Aegon is or is not the real thing, but your arguments do very little to convince me either way.

[Nev yn]

I am sorry but you would have to explain where in any of what you have posted is evidence of any doubt Tyrion has of Aegons birth right.

All that Tyrion guessing that Young Griff is Aegon means is that Young Griff is acting and being treated in such a way as to give the impression to a somewhat clever person that he is Aegon. It has absolutely no bearing on the actual truth of whether he is or not. Most theories have Aegon and JonCon (and likely the rest of the entourage) not knowing that he's a fake, so Tyrion's perceptions tell you absoutely nothing as to whether he is or not.

[Uncle Impe]

I have a hard time deciding one way or the other about whether Aegon is real. On the one hand, most of the evidence that he isn't is pretty circumstantial and has to do with potential holes in the idea that he is legitimate. On the other hand, his story is somewhat weak--the only people who can truly verify it are a cunning spymaster and a foriegn magister. It's almost a perfect scenario for giving an imposter a strong claim, as long as you have one that you can pass off as a Targaryen (and between the Blackfyers, Aerion Brightflame, and other random people in the free cities known to have Targaryen looking traits, it's well established this wouldn't necessarily be difficult). Plus its place in the narrative is quite out of left field, it's not like some great mystery that was unraveled. Everyone thought Aegon was dead, and then all of a sudden he wasn't. Something feels stylistically off about that. And the mummer's dragon references do cast some viable support for speculation that there is a "fake Targaryen" out there, though that's obviously designed to be cryptic.

Either way, this is one of those storylines that I have doubts about from just about every angle, and I'm pretty much just resigned to seeing how it plays out rather than trying to decipher some hidden code.

FWIW, I tentatively agree with you that the idea that if he is fake, he's Illyrio's son is based almost purely on speculative grounds based on some vague nostolgia Illyrio seems to feel about Serra.

Good points. Its better to wait for the truth than throw out theories that amount to nothing more than bad speculation. This is not to say people cant speculation. Its a book about fantasy any one can speculate. But there have to be limits.

You make very good points about Tyrion believing that Aegon is the real thing, but I don't find any evidence that this makes it true.

Tyrion also believes that Jon is Ned's bastard son, but I personally don't believe this is true.

I'm on the fence about whether Aegon is or is not the real thing, but your arguments do very little to convince me either way.

But Tyrion is not used by GRRm to puzzle out Jon's true birth. Tyrion also believes that Rickon and Bran are dead, but he has not been used by GRRm to riddle out the events of winterfell.

This is key to my argument that every time Tryion has been used by GRRM in this way he has been right. (like figuring out that Lancel was effing the queen, who hired an assassin to kill bran, Jorah Mormont's identity etc)

[Where Boars Glow]

Then your argument fails, because Tyrion is actually skeptical of Aegon's parentage. By your own logic, you are wrong.

Not to mention it got a little LARPY and weird :)

[Uncle Impe]

All that Tyrion guessing that Young Griff is Aegon means is that Young Griff is acting and being treated in such a way as to give the impression to a somewhat clever person that he is Aegon. It has absolutely no bearing on the actual truth of whether he is or not. Most theories have Aegon and JonCon (and likely the rest of the entourage) not knowing that he's a fake, so Tyrion's perceptions tell you absoutely nothing as to whether he is or not.

That argument only makes sense when you make a very bad assumption. (and no offense to you but every one seems to make that assumption and it took me a while to see it as well). And that assumption is that a clever person ie Tyrion will come along. Think about it, these people have been carrying on the ruse exactly as Tyrion found it for the last 15 years. Varys and Illyrio did not make their plans with the calculation that 15 years later, the stunted dwarf son of the Rhaegars children's murderer would come along and unravel their plans.

And as per your argument a clever person only manages to figure out the truth because of the nature of the ruse itself. Ie John connington, the soiled septon, a hedge knight and chainless halfmaester. Which begs the question, If a clever person can figure out the ruse with the current clique of guardians, then why bother at all?

Tryion breaks it down quite well only because of the way the ruse was set up and that makes you wonder. If he was fake why not educate him in the safe confines of Illyrio's manse, get him a true septon, a real maester and have him do an apprenticeship?

He is not a real Targaryen therefore there is no risk to being identified by any one as being a targ...right?

[Dragonfish]

Could you explain why u think this is a statement of doubt, I see it as a clear affirmation of the boys birthright and is made in sarcastic reference to his tutelage not his lineage.

The statement "He may well be a Targaryen after all" indicates that Tyrion has doubts. I thought that was clear based purely on the sentence alone, but I guess you needed it spelled out for you.

[Uncle Impe]

All that Tyrion guessing that Young Griff is Aegon means is that Young Griff is acting and being treated in such a way as to give the impression to a somewhat clever person that he is Aegon. It has absolutely no bearing on the actual truth of whether he is or not. Most theories have Aegon and JonCon (and likely the rest of the entourage) not knowing that he's a fake, so Tyrion's perceptions tell you absoutely nothing as to whether he is or not.

I already addressed the absurdity of the argument that Connington and co dont know that Aegon is fake. (its one of the worst theories yet) please read initial post in its entirety because i addressed that specifically.

[Uncle Impe]

The statement "He may well be a Targaryen after all" indicates that Tyrion has doubts. I thought that was clear based purely on the sentence alone, but I guess you needed it spelled out for you.

two things...

1) You should answer my question. Out of the whole book, this is all you have as proof of Tyrion's doubt? From what you were posting one would think that you had better crystal clear quotes that would make a solid argument.

2) As i said before this is a statement of sarcastic irony. Where Tyrion is not talking about the boys lineage but his temperament in contrast to what his tutors have been trying to instill in him.

If you read the whole chapter properly you will see that Tyrion is setting out to manipulate the boy and inciting anger is part of his strategy. (its clearly stated as tyrion goads him)

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]




I have read some of the most laughable theories on this forum about ASOIAF but by far, the Aegon is Illyrio's son is the most pathetic by far. Seriously people this book
has its mysteries, puzzlers, plots within plots and actions that simply boggle the mind. But not all the stuff in the book is meant to be a mystery. Some times when the author says the butcher's boy is dead, it really means he is dead. No two ways about it. In this case GRRM pretty much tells us that Aegon is indeed a Targaryen through Tyrion Lannister's POV. One would think that was one of the simpler very clear cut chapters of the book, but no. Apparently some want to write their own book complete with new unsubstantiated psychological make ups of characters, uncorroborated motives while others just post with sheer ignorance of consequent events in the book that would nullify their theories. Even I have engaged in the occasional bit of speculation but I am sober enough to admit when some one points out a hole in my theory.







When understanding a book one should do well to understand the writing style of an author so as to not waste time indulging in bogus and pointless speculation.







This is the very first point I have marked and underlined for those who are easily confused




your tone is obnoxious. It's fine to disagree with people, you don't have to insult their intelligence.





First and foremost let me state that I think this whole revelation completely addresses the issue of Aegon's birthright. I have argued before that every time GRRm has used Tryion in this manner, Tyrion has been 100% spot on. No where has Tyrion unraveled a mystery and then turned out to be wrong. (If he has broken down a puzzle or mystery and has come to a wrong conclusion, then please cite this and I will take my words back. I have taken the liberty of editing out some text that has nothing to do with the conversation. I have also highlighted some of what I feel is the most crystal clear evidence from GRRM that Aegon is a true Targaryen and that Tyrion believes him to be one without doubt.




your argument that Tyrion is always spot on is flawed. You simply assert that he's always 100% correct without substantiating the claim with any examples or analysis. Then you argue that people who think otherwise have the burden of proof on them and must provide examples to demonstrate that he's actually been wrong before. This is backwards the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that he's been correct 100% of the time. Until then someone negating your claim only has to say "i disagree, prove it," at which point you can point to some examples that support your claim and a debate can take place. Until then you've just made and assertion and mixed up who has the burden of proof in a debate.

And for an example of Tyrion being wrong other than the times he couldn’t grasp what Varys and Littlefinger were up to until after it was revealed, Tyrion thought Mormont was goning to take him to Cersei not Dany.




This is the very first point I have marked and underlined for those who are easily confused.



(1)If I did not know before, I would now.

This is Tyrion's internal dialogue and it is meant for the reader to understand exactly what Tyrion's thought process is after all. Some people have posted some rather tortured arguments about Tyrion stating that he believes one thing then thinking something different. That is totaly rubbish. In the whole book there is nothing more solid and clear about what Tyrion thinks of Aegon. He truly believes him to be a Targaryen. That is what that statement clearly says. "If I didnt know before" This clearly means that he knew before the boy even opened his mouth to confirm what he already knew for certain. This is GRRM's way of telling you exactly what is in Tyrion's mind. The people on the boat dont get to hear him say that. Only the reader knows.
 So that one statement alone puts to rest the silly nonsense that Tyrion secretly believes Aegon to be a "feigned boy"




When Tyrion reveals Aegon's "identity" his argument is based purely on the logical deduction that a sellsword's kid wouldn't be raised in the manner that Young Griff(YG) was being raised in and that the obvious conclusion is that he's Aegon. There are a number of reasons for Tyrion to assume he’s Aegon, YG looks like a Targ, baby Aegon’s head sounds like it was smashed beyond recognition, if there were to be an unknown targ that survived the Rebellion it makes sense that it would be Aegon, Griff as Tyrion noted was all too obvious a name for the exiled lord of griffon’s roost, along w/ the cultural trappings of Westrosi nobility. This doesn't mean he's 100% convinced, it may be his working theory. Generally people don’t accept the identity of a long lost prince who’s brains were smashed against a wall and who’s corpse was paraded before the court without at least a little doubt. And even if he has convinced himself that YG is Aegon it doesn't mean he's right. His theory is no more or less speculative than the majority of theories floating around these forums.









Some have yet made some rather silly arguments "That Jon Connington has been fooled by Varys and given a feigned boy". It is a rather silly argument but hey, some people believe it whole heartedly. Here are some solid arguments against that nonsensical theory. 

Connington was friends with Rhaegar, he of all people should know better than most what Rhaegar looked like and what his potential son could look like. No one in book was closer to Rhaegar than connington (no one thats alive that is). It is really stupid for some one to suggest that Tyrion Lannister who does actually confess only having seen Rhaegar once or twice as an infant could have a better ability to identify a boy he has never set eyes on as the son of a man he barely ever saw.
 Any one suggesting this theory is really reaching and insulting the your intelligence and the authors diligently written story line by inserting this mummery in place of logic. Some one actually had the balls to suggest that "Connington has malleable mind and because he was so distraught from having failed before was therefore willing to believe any whores whelp set before him as the son of Rhaegar" Its an argument so absurd one wonders how people come up with such crap.(nothing of the sort is written any where in the book. Its just some one making up their own fairy tales) Its a though they expect one to ignore the clearly written description of the boy's physical features that resemble Prince Rhaegar's




Lummel has answered this argument above. JonCon has no way of knowing what Aegon would actually look like. To the extent he saw baby Aegon it was briefly, before running off to the get defeated by Robert and being forced into exile. 5 year time gap, limited contact w/ the child in it’s infancy, and then V+I show up w/ a child w/ Targ traits and a chance at redemption, plus a number of additional arguments that are textually based such as the people seeing what they want to believe stuff and the stuff about how Illyrio dotes on him, and the fact that there are still Blackfyres still out there means people have a decent case that JonCon is wrong about Ageon.







(2)“The blue hair makes your eyes

seem blue,

and


(7)I must admit, you have noble features for a
dead boy.”



Apparently GRRm added those little details as clear identifiers just for the hell of it.




No I’m quite confident that GRRM made an intentional decision to describe YG that way. The description however in no way indicates that YG is Aegon.




The whores whelp thrown to Connington's care just happened to have these physical features that fooled Jon Connington




Yep.




and that Tyrion was able to pick up on and identify the boy he knew to be dead as Aegon.




No. He thought the boy could be Aegon based on a series of logical deductions, he’s not certain.




No one can explain why those features dont resemble the fat bulbous Illyrio, none of the purveyors of the theory can explain how the Illyrio was able to endow Aegon with features so easily identified as Rhaegar. May be Illyrio has a magical appendage that allows him to birth regal look alikes. (I guess I can help out the theorists with another tortured and made up excuse.







Yes it’s quite easy to explain. Illyrio was once quite fit and a capable fighter the statute, the stories, it’s all there in the text. YG is described as taller than JonCon despite not being fully grown. This would make him quite large, in fact, I’m pretty sure it would make him considerably taller than Rhaegar. It is possible that if he makes to old age Aegon could be as large as Illyrio he’s tall and getting taller all he has to do now is live long and get fat.

It’s also easy to explain YG’s targ features if he is actually a Blackfyre descended from Daemon via a female line.




Regarding the boys appearance. According to GRRM, the boy so much resembles his father that cabal involved in this 15/16 year old plot has had to set up quite an intriguing group of people to rear him. 







Why go through all this delicate planning to hide a "feigned boy". If then there is no risk of him being identified as the real Aegon. I asked this question of one of the Illyrio theory sympathizers and what they came back with was that "Varys and Illyrio wanted Connington to believe the ruse" Seriously as though Connington could have missed all the other clues but had they hired a legitimate maester, to tutor him, a proper septon or a master at arms then this would have given away the game to Jon connington. Seriously, this is the nonsense people are passing off as legitimate speculation that should be seriously considered instead of laughed at in its absurdity.

Not one single person has posted any legitimate reason backed up by anything in the text to back up their claims. Every time you point out something from the book that stands in stack contrast to their claims, they resort to their own imagination and make up stories that appear dumber and dumber by the post.

Please folks, this book is not that complicated, like I told some one else, its already enough fun with you adding your own spices and salt (or in some cases just adding plain old bull manure and ruining the story)

If you are gonna speculate please limit it to facts in the book not made up stuff in your head.


V+I like things to be complicated, that’s pretty obvious in the text. Aegon has a better claim to the Iron Throne than a Blackfyre. If YG if is a Blackfyre pretender than they would be well served to convince the world he’s Aegon instead of a pretender because Aegon’s claim to the throne is by far the best. One way to do this is to get people to believe your hiding Aegon, hence the all to obvious name. They wanted Tyrion to think he was clever and had found out what their plot was, when in reality his belief that they’re hiding Aegon only helps them spread the word that he’s Aegon.

i don't even like the fAegon argument i just don't think the people who've made the argument are as dumb as you indicate they are.

[Dragonfish]

I doubt my last post is going to convince you, so I'll address some of your other points.

Connington was friends with Rhaegar, he of all people should know better than most what Rhaegar looked like and what his potential son could look like. No one in book was closer to Rhaegar than connington (no one thats alive that is). It is really stupid for some one to suggest that Tyrion Lannister who does actually confess only having seen Rhaegar once or twice as an infant could have a better ability to identify a boy he has never set eyes on as the son of a man he barely ever saw.

Read the passage again. Tyrion doesn't base his deduction on any resemblance between Aegon and Rhaegar, beyond the hair and eyes, which are not unique to Targaryens.

Any one suggesting this theory is really reaching and insulting the your intelligence and the authors diligently written story line by inserting this mummery in place of logic. Some one actually had the balls to suggest that "Connington has malleable mind and because he was so distraught from having failed before was therefore willing to believe any whores whelp set before him as the son of Rhaegar" Its an argument so absurd one wonders how people come up with such crap.(nothing of the sort is written any where in the book. Its just some one making up their own fairy tales)

Making stuff up? *Sigh* Do me a favor, and re-read the following portions of the books:

1) Syrio's story of the cat which everyone thought was some exotic animal simply because the Sealord told them so. The lesson Syrio imparts to Arya is that "people see what they want to see", and that she should "look with her eyes."

2) Connington's two chapters. Notice how utterly obsessed with redemption he is. Note in particular the follow line (p. 805): "I failed the father, [...] but I will not fail the son."

Now put these two things together. People see what they want to see. And what does Connington want most of all? He wants to redeem himself by putting the child of the man he loved on the throne. And what does George usually do with characters such as these? What does he do with people who have deep desires such as these? He pulls the rug out from under them, and turns their dreams to ashes. And what would be the best way to do that to Connington? By making it so that the boy he is fighting for turns out to be an imposter. Something which he does not see, because he sees what he wants to see.

Disagree with the above analysis all you want. But don't act like it isn't supported by direct quotes and themes from the books.

Its a though they expect one to ignore the clearly written description of the boy's physical features that resemble Prince Rhaegar's

It's as though you can't quite get it in your head that Young Griff is never described as looking like Prince Rhaegar, except, as I said, for the hair and eye color. Connington is the only one to offer a direct comparison between the two, and in that case he specifically notices a difference (namely, Aegon's eye color is lighter than Rhaegar's). Otherwise, there's been no indication that he looks especially like Rhaegar.

No one can explain why those features dont resemble the fat bulbous Illyrio

He actually does resemble him in certain ways. Illyrio was lithe, handsome, and light-haired when he was younger. Young Griff is also lithe, handsome, and light-haired, though perhaps not the same shade of light hair. That he could've gotten from his mother.

none of the purveyors of the theory can explain how the Illyrio was able to endow Aegon with features so easily identified as Rhaegar.

That's because they aren't identified with Rhaegar.

I thought we were the ones who were supposed to be making stuff up?

May be Illyrio has a magical appendage that allows him to birth regal look alikes. (I guess I can help out the theorists with another tortured and made up excuse.

Regal looks, whatever that's supposed to mean, could easily have been imparted to Aegon through his Blackfyre genes, if he has them.

Why go through all this delicate planning to hide a "feigned boy". If then there is no risk of him being identified as the real Aegon. I asked this question of one of the Illyrio theory sympathizers and what they came back with was that "Varys and Illyrio wanted Connington to believe the ruse"

Actually, that's a pretty good answer. Another one would be that if a known friend of Prince Rhaegar's had been seen running around with a boy of about the same appearance and age as Rhaegar's supposedly dead son, it might arouse suspicion. Keeping him hidden is a harmless precaution.

If you are gonna speculate please limit it to facts in the book not made up stuff in your head.

Wise words. If only you'd followed them.

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

That argument only makes sense when you make a very bad assumption. (and no offense to you but every one seems to make that assumption and it took me a while to see it as well). And that assumption is that a clever person ie Tyrion will come along. Think about it, these people have been carrying on the ruse exactly as Tyrion found it for the last 15 years. Varys and Illyrio did not make their plans with the calculation that 15 years later, the stunted dwarf son of the Rhaegars children's murderer would come along and unravel their plans.

And as per your argument a clever person only manages to figure out the truth because of the nature of the ruse itself. Ie John connington, the soiled septon, a hedge knight and chainless halfmaester. Which begs the question, If a clever person can figure out the ruse with the current clique of guardians, then why bother at all?

Tryion breaks it down quite well only because of the way the ruse was set up and that makes you wonder. If he was fake why not educate him in the safe confines of Illyrio's manse, get him a true septon, a real maester and have him do an apprenticeship?

He is not a real Targaryen therefore there is no risk to being identified by any one as being a targ...right?

No. V+I sent Tyrion to Aegon. If they were worried he would ruin their carefully laid plans they wouldn't have sent him. They sent him because they wanted him to think he was clever for finding out their ruse, and who better then the son of the man who supposedly killed Aegon to now vouch for Aegon's return. It is all too obvious. The Risk is that no-one will see him has a Targ, hence the crappy effort at concealing him in a way that makes him look like a targ trying to conceal themselves.

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

But I am Uncle Impe....How else could I talk about their theories?

how is this not offensive? What makes it okay for you to pretend to be a shallow caricature of one of GRRM's favorite characters in the series, as a justification for your obnoxious behavior, but not okay for people to speculate? Do you really think that if he were to look at the forums and see your posts he would say to himself "wow! this man knows the imp even better than I do!" You're not the Imp incarnate. Stop pretending like your rude posts are in anyway analogues to the Imp and his vast awesomeness or GRRM's well developed and beloved character.

[mcb]

Regal looks, whatever that's supposed to mean, could easily have been imparted to Aegon through his Blackfyre genes, if he has them.

Actually, if you think about it, Young Griff's regal looks should be a small point for the Blackfyre theory. Daemon "even looked like a proper king", unlike his half-brother, King Daeron II. So Alleged Aegon's "regal looks" either indicate his Blackfyre pedigree, or (I'm leaning that way) indicate nothing at all.

[Dragonfish]

I'd like to add that at first Cersei thinks Aurane Waters is the spitting image of Rhaegar. It's only later that she realizes he really doesn't look that much like him, beyond the hair and eyes, and even those aren't that unique (she says that "half the whores in Lys" have the very same features, if the tales are true). This tells us two important things:

1) Valyrian features are not proof positive of Aegon's identity, especially if he actually descends from the Blackfyre line.

2) Recognizing resemblances between two people is a subjective process, one that can be affected by the expectations of the viewer. Cersei is fooled into thinking Aurane looks just like Rhaegar, and man she "loved" and obsessed over in her youth, and all because of the hair and eyes. The same principle could easily apply to Connington, and explain why he doesn't notice that Aegon and Rhaegar don't look that much alike either.

[SecretaryofEvil]

Absolutely nothing in that ungodly long original post refutes the notion that Aegon is actually the son of Illyrio and a female Blackfyre. It seems like Martin wanted to draw attention to Illyio's deceased wife for some reason. Maybe it was just to provide some characterization for Illyrio. Maybe Illyrio just cares for Aegon as an adopted son. But it seems perfectly plausible that Aegon could be Illyrio's son by a woman with Targ features.

[Silent_Hero]

This is one of those mysteries that we may never get a definite answer of YG being fake or not. The easter eggs id say that points him out to be fake are numerous and the "evidence" to say he's the real deal is loose if not laughable. Internal monologues are not to be taken as evidence, We only have the word of a eunuch and a greedy fat man to back up his claim.

Young Griff might be based on Lambert Simnel, who claimed to be the long-lost prince of England who was thought by to many to have escaped death around the time of the War of the Roses, Lambert Simnel was trained from a young age under a English priest and he later started a war for the throne but his rebellion was crushed. The king pardoned him because he was a puppet.

Half the whores of Lys share the Targ features, and Jon Connington wasn't introduced to him until a few years later. Very Very Weird.

[Uncle Impe]

your argument that Tyrion is always spot on is flawed. You simply assert that he's always 100% correct without substantiating the claim with any examples or analysis. Then you argue that people who think otherwise have the burden of proof on them and must provide examples to demonstrate that he's actually been wrong before. This is backwards the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that he's been correct 100% of the time. Until then someone negating your claim only has to say "i disagree, prove it," at which point you can point to some examples that support your claim and a debate can take place. Until then you've just made and assertion and mixed up who has the burden of proof in a debate.And for an example of Tyrion being wrong other than the times he couldn’t grasp what Varys and Littlefinger were up to until after it was revealed, Tyrion thought Mormont was goning to take him to Cersei not Dany.

Honestly, most of your posts have been cracking me up. I have to thank you for posting. But fear not your good ole Uncle Impe is here to walk you back from the edges of la-la land.

your argument that Tyrion is always spot on is flawed. You simply assert that he's always 100% correct without substantiating the claim with any examples or analysis. Then you argue that people who think otherwise have the burden of proof on them and must provide examples to demonstrate that he's actually been wrong before. This is backwards the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that he's been correct 100% of the time. Until then someone negating your claim only has to say "i disagree, prove it," at which point you can point to some examples that support your claim and a debate can take place. Until then you've just made and assertion and mixed up who has the burden of proof in a debate.

See being an uncle as generous as I am, I am willing to concede certain points. Not because I lack examples (of those I have many, ie. figuring out who attempted to assassinate Bran, that lancel was effing Cersei, Who jorah mormont was, that Jorah mormont was in love with dany etc.) The only reason why I shall concede here is because I am rather fatigued with this particular issue. If a person cant get the point and people keep retorting with nonsense like "And for an example of Tyrion being wrong other than the times he couldn’t grasp what Varys and Littlefinger were up to" then its gone completely over their heads they will never get it. So there. I concede on that point. For sanity's sake. mmkay?(but if i were to argue with the example you gave about Tyrion wrongly thinking that jorah was taking him to cersei. I would ask something as simple as, so you expected Tyrion to guess the first time he set eyes on jorah that he was Dany's former hand dismissed and there to return her to her so he could redeem himself. Do you realize how absurd that is? Why not just say something as equally shallow as "Tyrion did not know who Young grief was and thought he was a sellswords son with blue hair" lmao)but like i said, i dont intend to kick that horse. It aint going no where.

This doesn't mean he's 100% convinced, it may be his working theory. Generally people don’t accept the identity of a long lost prince who’s brains were smashed against a wall and who’s corpse was paraded before the court without at least a little doubt. And even if he has convinced himself that YG is Aegon it doesn't mean he's right. His theory is no more or less speculative than the majority of theories floating around these forums.

Why dont you have your cake and eat it too while you are it? You remind me of my little nephews who have a silly little rhyme they sing about cow boys. It goes something like "Cow boys, never die, If they die, they never rot, If they rot they never stink" Seriously with this post thats all I can think of. Tryion isnt convinced, if he is convinced then it still doesnt make it the truth.. Seriously I cant argue with that logic. I can only laugh.I can tell you this however, that the very first line I quoted in my post clearly indicates that Tyrion is 100% convinced he Young Griff is Aegon. If you want to argue other wise, you will have to show some actual evidence from the book. Sorry but your word is worthless to me. I was hoping you would have grasped that point by now. Only interested in what the book tells us not what every tom dick and harry can dream up. And the fact that can be very easily proven by quoting from the book (which apparently by your own word is poorly written) is this. Tyrion is 100% convinced that Young Griff is Aegon. and here is the unambigous, crystal clear line from that book that tells us that.

(1)If I did not know before, I would now.

Until you and the others who are selling your dreamed up theories of blackfyres and whores address that line, I am sorry but your claims turn to simple noise.

No I’m quite confident that GRRM made an intentional decision to describe YG that way. The description however in no way indicates that YG is Aegon.

Did some one call me an obnoxious prick? How about that ballsy arrogance. Seriously you are going out of your way to diss the owner of the story for not formulating it as you so wish. This statement alone is the embodiment of the absurdity of theories and the people who hold them. Actual proof that there are people out there who think they know the story better than the author himself. I guess we should let you write the rest of the book . seriously, may be you are write. GRRM probably didnt mean to write that, His pen probably slipped and fell and well....... :bs:

Yes it’s quite easy to explain. Illyrio was once quite fit and a capable fighter the statute, the stories, it’s all there in the text. YG is described as taller than JonCon despite not being fully grown. This would make him quite large, in fact, I’m pretty sure it would make him considerably taller than Rhaegar. It is possible that if he makes to old age Aegon could be as large as Illyrio he’s tall and getting taller all he has to do now is live long and get fat.It’s also easy to explain YG’s targ features if he is actually a Blackfyre descended from Daemon via a female line.

and the cow jumped over the moon... right? Of course anything is easy to to explain when you make up crap and run with it. Like I said before and will say again, some one made up a Blackfyre whore married her to Illyrio and they had a boy who resembled Rhaegar, they just didnt send us a memo about what they dreamt up from the depths of their minds. Seriously i have read the book cover to cover and I cant find a damn thing about the elephantine Ilyrio and his whore wife being a blackfyre. But then again you have already told the whole world what a lousy writer GRRM is, i guess you have the license to make up for his short comings.

i don't even like the fAegon argument i just don't think the people who've made the argument are as dumb as you indicate they are.

I think you are 100% right. They cant be that as dumb as i indicated. :ack:

[Dragonfish]

Until you and the others who are selling your dreamed up theories of blackfyres and whores address that line, I am sorry but your claims turn to simple noise.

All this line or the entire conversation shows is that Tyrion has figured out who they all believe Young Griff to be. That doesn't mean he necessarily believes it himself.