Littlefinger Character discussion (GoT)

[poor_fellow]

Not sure if this is the right place, but I did have a topic I wanted discussed after re-reading GoT. Peter Baelish's character has been revealed throughout the series, but re-reading the scene of Bronn vs. Sir Vardis I have some questions about him. During Bronn v. Vardis, Cat thinks back to when Littlefinger fought Brandon for the right to wed her. Cat begs Brandon to spare his life, and he agrees. The fight commences and of course Peter is hopelessly outmatched. Brandon wounds him several times, and tells him to surrender. Peter refuses until Brandon lands the last blow, something that Cat thought must be fatal.

Now I think this section is caught up with ADwD, so I think it's fair to say Peter has shown time and time again that he's as self serving as they come. The whole business with Lysa's pregnancy, Jon Arryn's death, etc. He's in it for himself. So how exactly do you equate that to his fight to the death with Brandon? From all the books there's nothing in his behavior that would point to him being a man willing to die to be with someone. Peter has always been clever and practical, surely he knew he was hopelessly outmatched by Brandon. Where is the cold calculating Littlefinger in this situation? He has a very small chance of getting Cat as his wife and a very large chance of dying. He refuses to back down, allowing his precious body to be bit into. Littlefinger is supposed to care about Littlefinger and Littlefinger alone. Did he think that it was likely that Brandon would spare him? Was there some complex self serving plan to it? What exactly was his feelings for Cat? Can his fight support the idea that he simply lusted for her and wanted her as wife to increase his status? Could Littlefinger have actually loved Cat more than he loved himself? Could his defeat somehow have sealed his fate as a cold and selfish man? And if he really did love Cat in some way, is there any chance of that non-selfish love being applied to Sansa? Post your theories and opinions.

[Porter88]

I think the HBO series does a better job of illistrating this fact than the novels, but losing that fight to Brandon, losing Cat forever, seems to have caused him to form his devilish manipulative personality. He lost faith in the whole, "good conquers evil in the end," mentality. He view became more like, "Screw people over for my benifit, and if I can get away with it screw them some more."

www.tritaniumtimes.blogspot.com

[poor_fellow]

I think the HBO series does a better job of illistrating this fact than the novels, but losing that fight to Brandon, losing Cat forever, seems to have caused him to form his devilish manipulative personality. He lost faith in the whole, "good conquers evil in the end," mentality. He view became more like, "Screw people over for my benifit, and if I can get away with it screw them some more."

www.tritaniumtimes.blogspot.com

I have to admit a bias, having watched the first season before reading the series. Peter's monologue in the brothel about foolishly believing in stories of the underdog winning first gave me the impression that there might be more to him.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

Brandon killed the boy. From then on, Baelish was a man, dead to sentiment and romance.

[Stark Vengeance]

I hate to infuse the show with the books, while discussing a story I primarily regard as literary.

I hope that makes sense?

That said, GRRM has admittedly clued Weiss & Benioff in on the ultimate destination of the story.

Imho, THAT is why Littlefinger's role is "heightened"(?) in the show.

While relating the duel with Brandon to Ros in the brothel, he says: "since I couldn't fight them, I decided to f*ck them".

Couple that with Varys' sentiment that "Littlefinger is the most dangerous man in the Seven Kingdoms. He would watch the whole country burn if he could be King Of The Ashes". He also remarks that, should Baelish somehow marry Sansa, "The Key To The North", that "the Army" would soon be his as well. (Albeit Varys thinks Bran & Rickon are dead)

There is something mysteriously deeper to Littlefinger. I believe the plan to usurp the Vale is a long-standing plan he concocted with Lysa, at her eventual expense. I am not yet through with GoT on the Re-Read yet, but the conflicting tales of Sweetrobin's fostering, and the poisoning of Jon Arryn seem to hint that Littlefinger is up to no good. There appears to be a long-term plan at work.

Does Baelish recommend Ned to Robert when Jon Arryn dies? Did someone whisper in Joffrey's ear to behead Ned Stark, after all of his talk of mercy? Could the demise of the Starks be Littlefinger's idea? Was it he who secretly set the Lannisters and Starks at each other's throats?

[Reginald blackfield]

That's a good idea, if so littlefinger is westeros' most evil man.

[caliquenor]

I just read the same chapter (Bronn vs Vardis) on my GoT re-read, and I agree that the lost fight against Brandon seems to have changed Littlefinger. After he loses and is abed, he cannot even see Cat and is thrown out of the Vale. From that moment, it makes sense he creates his master plan against the Starks (and any major house, it seems).

My only doubt is: is he just messing around with everyone for the sake of it (revenge from said humilliation) and see what it comes out, improvising as events unfold, or does he have a final purpose in all the havoc? It is hard to believe that such a complicated plan he is developing from the start has a final goal, as there are too many variables, too many things that could go wrong... But hey, Littlefinger is actually being shown as the ASoIaF mastermind (especially in HBO series), so who knows?

[Pearlblue5]

Brandon killed the boy. From then on, Baelish was a man, dead to sentiment and romance.

Totally agree with this. I believe that it was a tipping point and developed the character we know today.

[Luthien Targaryen]

I had a theory the other week that Littlefinger had more against the Lannisters than he had against the Starks. He feel he tries to use Ned in King's Landing but realises that Ned is entirely useless in that particular role. I don't get the feeling that he'd been planning on stabbing Ned in the back, or perhaps more accurately kicking him when he was down, for any great length of time, he just jumped ship to save his own neck when it was clear that Ned was doomed.If Ned had allied with Renly then i'm sure Littlefinger would have stuck around, being sarcastic, trying to persuade them to do things his way and pissing off Ned just enough to make life interesting while not risking his head.

As for the Lannisters, they seem to be the guys Littlefinger loves to lay the blame on. Jon Arryn's death? Lannisters. Bran's fall and the subsequent assassination attempt? Tyrion. Ned's execution? Cersei and Joffrey. Robert's death? Cersei. Joff's death? Tyrion. Tywin's death? Tyrion. It's only too bad that there weren't any Lannisters around for him to pin Lysa's death on, although It's another reason Sansa should look out. Of course, in some cases he's right or mostly right...but that's quite convenient don't you think?

I was also struck by how little Littlefinger seems interested in pursuing Catelyn after Ned's death (in the book, i seem to recall a scene in the TV series where he goes to talk to her, but in the book there's nothing.) He seems more interested in playing along with the Tyrells and in Sansa than anything or anyone else. It Littlefinger had a grudge against the Starks in particular, wouldn't he have had to have had a reason? The fact that he may or may not have a thing for Catelyn would be reason enough, but he does nothing about it. He's also not plotting the downfall of the Freys in retribution for her death or even realised that the Red Wedding has happened.

Has he actually lost the plot? Is he secretly planning Frey doom but hasn't told anyone yet? Or is it like you say, he's become sufficiently jaded that all he wants is to say "screw you" to Westeros in general? (He should really team up with Tyrion....) and if so, what is he doing with poor Sansa? Is Jeyne Poole part of a plan to wreak havoc on the Boltons for their part in the Red Wedding?

That's the joy of Littlefinger, you never know what he's thinking and sure as hell you don't know what he feels about anything.

[I Know I Know HoHoHoooo]

@Luthien - I was also struck by how little Littlefinger seems interested in pursuing Catelyn after Ned's death (in the book, i seem to recall a scene in the TV series where he goes to talk to her, but in the book there's nothing.)

First off, there can be no way LF hates Lannisters more than Starks - Brandon and Ned took the one thing he was willing to die for away from him...I agree from that point on he became the man he is today.

I also don't think he was ever able to fully let Cat go in his love, but being an opportunist, realized that Sansa was an eaiser "Cat" to nab...Ultimately it is all about LF, and so as a result of all his smart maneuvers, now sits with one of the best unused armies still around (Knights of the Vale), which he'll try and use at the right time. On top of that he'll try and make a younger version of Cat (Sansa) his wife all while trying to also get Winterfell...thus completing his ultimate hatred of House Stark.

I definitely love Varys as there will still be a lot of reveals to come on where he stands, but if devious characters had stock, LF has to be among the highest as far as what he is capable of and proven so far.