Question & Conjecture: If Drogon is linked to Drogo, then are Viserion and Rhaegal...

[Strongest Of All Belwas]

THE ATTENTION I CRAVE IS HERE!

No matter who or what ends up with a dragon I don't think any of the three will ever harm Dany. She's the only one who is not afraid of them and on top of that she is their mother. If any of them end up causing her trouble I think it will be in a more indirect way. And if any of them were channeling MMD, I think we would have seen something of it by now.

:agree: If MMD spirit was in one of them, she would have torched Dany already.

and the church of danystan said, Amen :)

I agree though, if MMD were linked to a dragon, she would have charred Dany in her sleep long ago.

I hear you guys, and I agree. I don't think the dragons will ever harm her, because even as they get older and even become more wild, they'll always know who their mother is. The thing is, I don't really believe that this is resurrection or reincarnation in any kind, but rather some sort of molding that came about as a part of the blood magic ritual. So Drogon isn't literally Drogo reborn, nor is Viserion actually Rhaego revived, and by that logic, Rhaegal isn't Mirri Maz Duur brought back in a new form. There were 3 eggs, barren and devoid of life. In the two blood magic rituals that happened in a short span, there were three lives lost, those of Rhaego, Drogon, and Mirri Maz Duur (in that order, as Rhaego was used in the initial Drogo ritual, and it isn't inconcievable a portion of him remained within Drogo's veggie body). Three dead stones, three lives lost, three lives created. If it was the life forces of those three that brought life to the three eggs, then it isn't a reach to wonder if those three lives in some way helped shape the life in the eggs. Not become the life in the eggs, mind you, but shaped it, as they WERE the catalysts.

I think the three lives that were used were Drogo, Rhaego, and Dany in a "let the girl die so the woman can be reborn" kind of thing.

My only issue with that both Drogo and Rhaego were literal lives being used, while Daenerys' was simply a metaphor, and while poetic, it doesn't carry the same power as an actual life.

The dragons as ressurection thing would make more sense to me if Rhaego was on that pyre

Fair enough, only I'm not saying it was a true ressurection. As I said above, I think of them more as catalysts, or building blocks rather than the actual individual souls. And Rhaego's life force was tied to Drogo's veggie shell, and with magic being so abstract, it's plausible his life force was still able to be used.

I completely understand what you're saying and I also completely agree. The dragons certainly don't appear - to me - to be reincarnations of Drogo, Mirri Maz Duur and Rhaego... But in some way they do seem to be... reflections, perhaps, of the characters.

I came to a similar conclusion as the OP

http://asoiaf.wester...-dragon-riders/

And in response to yolkboy, Daenerys herself, in ACOK reflects how the three lives of Drogo, Rhaego and MMD were sacrificed so her dragons could live. Also the morning when Dany woke after her "miscarriage" she held Viserion's egg and felt the stirring of life within it. So his resurrection may have occurred before the pyre. Viserion's egg was also the first to hatch.

Thanks guys. Totally forgot about Viserion being the first one to stir with life.

EDIT: BTW, my feeling on Rhaegal isn't so much as he's gonna be a deadly threat to Daenerys, but he WILL cause the most problems for her, due to the Mirri Maz Duur connection.

[mindchap]

I don't really believe the whole three sacrifice thing either, but if three lives were tied to the dragons those would be my guesses because like is mentioned a few other times, MMD would have been a nonstop pain in the ass from the get go. And all three seem as emotionally connected to Dany as the direwolves are to the Starks.

And feel free to correct me here but didn't she actually name Rhaegal after Rhaegar and not Rhaego? Found it:

“It may be as you say, blood of my blood,” Dany replied gravely, “but he shall have a new name for this new life. I would name them all for those the gods have taken. The green one shall be Rhaegal, for my valiant brother who died on the green banks of the Trident. The cream-and-gold I call Viserion. Viserys was cruel and weak and frightened, yet he was my brother still. His dragon will do what he could not.”

“And the black beast?” asked Ser Jorah Mormont.

“The black,” she said, “is Drogon.”

[gash]

drogon = riden by dany

rhaegal = riden by jon (his father's namesake)

viserion = brynden rivers (WTF WTF WTF WTF??!?? read below)

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/84707-brynden-rivers-the-dragons-third-head/

[Strongest Of All Belwas]

And feel free to correct me here but didn't she actually name Rhaegal after Rhaegar and not Rhaego? Found it:

Never said that, in fact I posted something that you just corroborated with your quote.

I spent a good bit of time trying to word it in a way that didn't come across as complete crackpottery, glad I succeeded. I wanted to see if anyone had this idea before, but search was down when I started.

One thing that make me laugh about this conjecture is that the dragon's names and my assumptions on personalities/behaviors clash. Viserion was named for Viserys, the bad brother, but was influenced by Rhaego, making it a "good" dragon, while Rhaegal is named for Rhaegar, but was shaped by Mirri, making it a "bad" dragon.

And I was always so down on Viserion strictly for his name prior to thinking of this.

[mindchap]

Never said that, in fact I posted something that you just corroborated with your quote.

Sorry that was me talking to myself pretty much, I couldn't remember which she named him after.

[Strongest Of All Belwas]

Forgot about this bit, sorry mindchap.

I don't really believe the whole three sacrifice thing either, but if three lives were tied to the dragons those would be my guesses because like is mentioned a few other times, MMD would have been a nonstop pain in the ass from the get go.

You do have a point, but I always looked at them in somewhat human-tinted glasses (which I shouldn't, because they're animals, but I look at the Stark Direwolves in similar light too, although they deserve it more than the dragons). The dragons seem like they are entering a rebellious teen phase, which would allow more individualized personalities to be established. You can see that even in animal psych, although on a much more condensed timeframe. They WERE babies for a while, so I tend to think their reliance on their mother overrode their own personalities to an extent, and now that they are cutting the cord, so to speak, we can now see them for what they really are.

[mindchap]

Forgot about this bit, sorry mindchap.

You do have a point, but I always looked at them in somewhat human-tinted glasses (which I shouldn't, because they're animals, but I look at the Stark Direwolves in similar light too, although they deserve it more than the dragons). The dragons seem like they are entering a rebellious teen phase, which would allow more individualized personalities to be established. You can see that even in animal psych, although on a much more condensed timeframe. They WERE babies for a while, so I tend to think their reliance on their mother overrode their own personalities to an extent, and now that they are cutting the cord, so to speak, we can now see them for what they really are.

I think we get to see more of the dragon's rebellious teen side, because like you said the timeline is different. From what I gather in the books the dragons live longer than people and a lot longer than wolves, so I assume there teens would last longer than other creatures. I think that's part of the reason why he wanted to create a five year gap to allow them to mature without there having to be direct observance of it in the text. I also think that's why he left her in Mereen for so long was so that they could grow without being the centerpiece of the storyline. Unfortunately that seems to have helped turn some people anti-Dany because they see her as an unfit mother simply because he was trying to avoid explaining the dragon's growth process.

[Strongest Of All Belwas]

I think we get to see more of the dragon's rebellious teen side, because like you said the timeline is different. From what I gather in the books the dragons live longer than people and a lot longer than wolves, so I assume there teens would last longer than other creatures. I think that's part of the reason why he wanted to create a five year gap to allow them to mature without there having to be direct observance of it in the text. I also think that's why he left her in Mereen for so long was so that they could grow without being the centerpiece of the storyline. Unfortunately that seems to have helped turn some people anti-Dany because they see her as an unfit mother simply because he was trying to avoid explaining the dragon's growth process.

My biggest gripe with the anti-Dany folks. Time. Daenerys needs way more time to prepare for war, as she started with nothing, and then has to consolidate her power, gather her resources, and then travel. And look how long Tyrion's travel is.

So to sum up my feelings on Rhaegal/Mirri, I don't feel he IS Mirri, nor do I think Mirri's influence will make him evil, but should he wind up being the most unruly of her dragons while Viserion winds up being a bit more tame (in time, he'll be trouble initially, too), then I feel the Drogo/Rhaego/Mirri connection will have a stronger gorund to stand on. We just won't know until TWoW, however.

[mindchap]

My biggest gripe with the anti-Dany folks. Time. Daenerys needs way more time to prepare for war, as she started with nothing, and then has to consolidate her power, gather her resources, and then travel. And look how long Tyrion's travel is.

So to sum up my feelings on Rhaegal/Mirri, I don't feel he IS Mirri, nor do I think Mirri's influence will make him evil, but should he wind up being the most unruly of her dragons while Viserion winds up being a bit more tame (in time, he'll be trouble initially, too), then I feel the Drogo/Rhaego/Mirri connection will have a stronger gorund to stand on. We just won't know until TWoW, however.

I agree, funny thing is Drogon has really caused her more grief than the other two combined. But he has also taken care of her more than the other two. Even though it's one of my favorite fights in the book it's a shame that Drogon didn't get to the Titan's Bastard before Selmy.

[Strongest Of All Belwas]

I agree, funny thing is Drogon has really caused her more grief than the other two combined. But he has also taken care of her more than the other two. Even though it's one of my favorite fights in the book it's a shame that Drogon didn't get to the Titan's Bastard before Selmy.

He's caused alot of problems, but I swear that Hazzea was fake. Daenerys' most important assests were removed from the field of play with that one.

[Propheticverses]

... linked to Rhaego and Mirri Maz Duur? There were three lives spent in the rituals leading up to the birth of Daenerys' dragons. Sure, Rhaego wasn't at the pyre. But his life was a part of the ritual that left Drogo as a vegetable, and therefore he IS connected to the burning of Drogo, despite not being there physically.

There have been many parallels drawn between Drogo and Drogon, I'll not rehash all of them, but the strong will, stubborn attitude, and aura of intimidation are just a few, and Drogon exhibited them long before his smaller brothers.

But if Drogon is shaped by the influence of Drogo, what of Viserion and Rhaegal? Viserion was shown to be the most affectionate/biggest mama's boy of the three. Even when he was the size of the dog, he'd still try to rest upon Dany's shoulder. When he was imprisoned, and Quentyn and co. arrived to steal a Dragon, he took a sudden interest in Meris, realizing she was a woman and looking for his "mother". I'd wager that the essence of Rhaego, Dany's lost child, is what led to the shaping of Viserion.

Which leaves Rhaegal... and Mirri Maz Duur. Truthfully, Rhaegal is the one dragon without any memorable moments. Nothing really stands out about him for much of the series, but Barristan notes that once Rhaegal and Viserion begin to turn feral, Rhaegal is far more dangerous and aggressive than Viserion. When he was young, he was close to Dany, sure, but there isn't any documentation showing any specific moments of affection, unlike Viserion's well documented affection and even the few moments of Drogon's.

As they got older, all 3 became more aggressive. They're dragons. It's their nature. But I have a sneaking suspicion that Viserion will remain faithful to Daenerys' when she returns, while Rhaegal will be a thorn in her side until the end. If one dragon seems likely to be taken by another, or wighted in the north, it's Rhaegal for me. Mirri Maz Duur acted helpful and friendly toward Daenerys initially, but in the end, she caused the greatest pain Daenerys has ever went through. And if Drogo shaped Drogon, and Rhaego shaped Viserion, then Mirri Maz Duur shaped Rhaegal.

Now I'm not saying that Drogo, Rhaego, and Mirri are reincarnated as/possessing dragons, but it WAS a blood magic ceremony. Blood magic deals with life force. And I don't think it's impossible that the three sacrificial lives in some way shaped the dragons that were brought into existence.

I have always thought that the naming of the Dragons have more to do with their intrinsic nature & physical qualities than any aspect of life-force or connections they have with the characters they are named after.

Danny would certainly name the 3 dragons with the 3 most person she is connected with ( in terms of relations & Nature) . Assuming that nature reflects the name is a good bit of an assumption however slightly flawed unless the Author chooses to interpret it as such .

The argument of Blood magic which connects Drogon to Drogo is one that can be acceptable given the mysterious nature of blood magic ... but Viserion being Rhaaegal would require a stretch in logic somehow considering the character has no direct relevance per se to the dragon .. if that was the case I see that the spirit of Aegon the conqueror could also easily come into the picture !! .. and as to MMD being Rhaego .... I confess it goes beyond the logic of normal story telling fantasy .. but then again .. this isn't a normal book by any stretch !! :)

[Strongest Of All Belwas]

but Viserion being Rhaaegal would require a stretch in logic somehow considering the character has no direct relevance per se to the dragon .. and as to MMD being Rhaego .... I confess it goes beyond the logic of normal story telling fantasy

I've NEVER said that Viserion was Rhaegal (or Rhaegar, for that matter), they're both individual dragons, nor in any way that Mirri Maz Duur is in fact Daenery's dead child Rhaego. lol

I'm guessing you meant Viserion = Rhaego and Rhaegal = MMD, but I'm not saying that they are one and the same. It all depends on how much you think the three lives used in the ritual connect to the three dragons born afterward. I think that it's plausible that they influenced the dragons' personalities to an extent, not that they are reincarnated as dragons. Temperments and behavioral quirks (and the like), not actually being them.

[Propheticverses]

I've NEVER said that Viserion was Rhaegal (or Rhaegar, for that matter), they're both individual dragons, nor in any way that Mirri Maz Duur is in fact Daenery's dead child Rhaego. lol

I'm guessing you meant Viserion = Rhaego and Rhaegal = MMD, but I'm not saying that they are one and the same. It all depends on how much you think the three lives used in the ritual connect to the three dragons born afterward. I think that it's plausible that they influenced the dragons' personalities to an extent, not that they are reincarnated as dragons. Temperments and behavioral quirks (and the like), not actually being them.

Yup the link was in reference to Viserion & Rhaego ... my bad on the typos !! :) .... I can understand the relevance of the influence in the Dragon's personalities with the blood magic and all ... although I ersonally think they are Dany's dragons ( super dragons .. of course !! ) .. but hers alone nonetheless and their traits being similar & distinct as s thematic & connective coincidence with the plot line .

Please note, I am not shooting down your theory or anything of that sort .. merely adding my 2 bit cents :)

[Strongest Of All Belwas]

Yup the link was in reference to Viserion & Rhaego ... my bad on the typos !! :) .... I can understand the relevance of the influence in the Dragon's personalities with the blood magic and all ... although I ersonally think they are Dany's dragons ( super dragons .. of course !! ) .. but hers alone nonetheless and their traits being similar & distinct as s thematic & connective coincidence with the plot line .

Please note, I am not shooting down your theory or anything of that sort .. merely adding my 2 bit cents :)

I didn't take it as a negative, it's a theory, and criticism can help me refine it, your's just as much as anyone else's.

At their core, they ARE Daenerys' dragons. They ARE her children. And as such, they can exhibit traits similar to her as a child can exhibit traits from their mother. I'd buy that. I just feel the connections to the sacrifices is a bit more substantial than is being let on.

[Dragon in the pools]

Hold on. Hold on. Could the three betrayals somehow be linked to the dragons.

If the dragons are the three that died. Could the blood, gold, love be the dragons?

Did the blood already start? When her "moons blood" started again after leaving with Drogo.

All those divergent views on the matting habits of dragons.

[Strongest Of All Belwas]

Did the blood already start? When her "moons blood" started again after leaving with Drogo.

All those divergent views on the matting habits of dragons.

Kinda confused as to what you're asking.

As for dragon mating, I believe it to be traditional male & female, with the added clarification that dragons are extreme sequential hermaphrodites and can change gender at will.

[Sevumar]

... linked to Rhaego and Mirri Maz Duur? There were three lives spent in the rituals leading up to the birth of Daenerys' dragons. Sure, Rhaego wasn't at the pyre. But his life was a part of the ritual that left Drogo as a vegetable, and therefore he IS connected to the burning of Drogo, despite not being there physically.

I've always thought that MMD's death fueled the hatching of all 3 eggs, so I don't think each one is "tied" to a specific soul. There are thematic parallels, to be sure. Each of the people a dragon is named after had to die for Dany's claim to come to viability through her dragons.

There have been many parallels drawn between Drogo and Drogon, I'll not rehash all of them, but the strong will, stubborn attitude, and aura of intimidation are just a few, and Drogon exhibited them long before his smaller brothers.

To a certain extent, all of these are "dragon" traits. Yes, Drogon seems to be maturing at a faster rate than his brothers, but I don't see any specific association with Drogo here. Compared to humans, dragons have a much smaller range of behavior and most of their traits seem to be aimed at aggression, hunting, and warlike temperment.

Now I'm not saying that Drogo, Rhaego, and Mirri are reincarnated as/possessing dragons, but it WAS a blood magic ceremony. Blood magic deals with life force. And I don't think it's impossible that the three sacrificial lives in some way shaped the dragons that were brought into existence.

I think the blood magic traded MMD's life for the hatching of all three dragons on the pyre. Rhaego's death preceded the execution of MMD too much in order for his "soul" to count in the hatching. If events happened as recounted toward the end of Game, I think it's likely that Rhaego's life force returned the eggs to viability as a side transaction in the ritual with the horse and Drogo.

[RKOpanther]

:agree: If MMD spirit was in one of them, she would have torched Dany already.

Pretty much. If Rheagal did try something Drogon would destroy him.

[RKOpanther]

I can see Dany losing Viserion to Euron and Rheagal fleeing to Westeros to be tamed by Jon. Drogon will stay with Dany till the end.

[KleZ]

The thing that bothers me is that Drogo and Dany´s son were already dead. Yea he burned Drogo´s body but it was Mirri Maz Duur the one that died in the fires.. if you count the lives that were lost, you have three Dothrakis, Rhaego and well Drogo in the end.. the only reflection would have been the magic that the witch used and in some form marked her. I think Dany had the vision that theee dragons born from the head of the the witch..

Now if you remember Melisandre´s purpose, she wanted to burn a "king" or a person with the blood of one to wake up the stone dragons. Drogo was some sort of a king and Mirri Maz Duur was a blood witch so.. Maybe both were the catalyst that Dany needed. The blood of a king and a life.