did cersie ever love jaime?

[Ours if the Fury]

She sees him as the 'male her', i think their is some love their, but i think its 'lannister love' and that because they look alike its a 'i love myself' male version in jamie. but overall i wouldn't call it real love in her eyes

[IRON BANK]

I am not really a Cersei "fan" but I do find this topic kind of dehumanizing to her, and naive in general.

Cersei is not a good person. She does not relate or intereact with others well. She is very selfish and self-centered. This does not mean she doesn't love Tywin, Jaime, or her children. She does love them. Her problem is that she doesn't really know how to love them well. In a fairytale, her brand of love would not qualify but this series and life in general are not fairytales. Cersei is a bad sister, a bad daughter, and a bad mother. Bad mothers can love their children even if their actions are counter-productive. Random example/straw man, a drug addict with children is definitely not a good parent, but that doesn't mean they don't or can't love.

Cersei loves her family. Cersei treats her family like shit. Cersei's decisions are detrimental to her family. These things can all be true.

So the question is; Even though Cersie has a form of what she feel and thinks love is, and we as the reader on the o/s know what love is, does this make Cersie a loving parent? I answer No. Cersie may have a concept of love and may try to express her own version, However her actions and results prove otherwise and as the reader we can ascertain this. Her bad actions point toward loveless action.

[LordStoneheart]

So the question is; Even though Cersie has a form of what she feel and thinks love is, and we as the reader on the o/s know what love is, does this make Cersie a loving parent? I answer No. Cersie may have a concept of love and may try to express her own version, However her actions and results prove otherwise and as the reader we can ascertain this. Her bad actions point toward loveless action.

Her bad actions point towards incompetence, not lack of love. What is Cersei thinking during her most idiotic actions? She thinks they're good actions that will further/protect her family.

Most of this debate just comes down to opinion. I'm sure we all have our own set definition of love. Love itself is not akin to loving someone in action. I truly believe Cersei loves her family, but it's not a fairytale type of love. I do however think a lot of the naysayers to this issue also have an idealized version of love that Cersei doesn't fit under. Bad people can feel love and their actions aren't really the determining factor. I mean honestly, if actions are what defined loved the ones Cersei loves the most are common folk and and her families enemies and the ones she hates the most are the Lannisters. But actions are only a part of love and that's where Cersei's struggle is. I personally do know a few bad people with children and while I cannot stand the factors that cause me to label them bad (drugs, pills, alcohol...) I would never say they do not love their children.

Damn, I'm really sounding like a Cersei fan here... :D It really irks me when people can just say a mother of three is incapable of loving them.

[sapphire_lion]

Her bad actions point towards incompetence, not lack of love. What is Cersei thinking during her most idiotic actions? She thinks they're good actions that will further/protect her family.

Most of this debate just comes down to opinion. I'm sure we all have our own set definition of love. Love itself is not akin to loving someone in action. I truly believe Cersei loves her family, but it's not a fairytale type of love. I do however think a lot of the naysayers to this issue also have an idealized version of love that Cersei doesn't fit under. Bad people can feel love and their actions aren't really the determining factor. I mean honestly, if actions are what defined loved the ones Cersei loves the most are common folk and and her families enemies and the ones she hates the most are the Lannisters. But actions are only a part of love and that's where Cersei's struggle is. I personally do know a few bad people with children and while I cannot stand the factors that cause me to label them bad (drugs, pills, alcohol...) I would never say they do not love their children.

Damn, I'm really sounding like a Cersei fan here... :D It really irks me when people can just say a mother of three is incapable of loving them.

Cersei thinks she loves Jaime and her kids, in the same way she thinks she was kind to Sansa. That’s what she wants to believe, but everything she’s ever done gives away the lie.

Cersei uses her children as a way to justify her bad acts, but she has never sacrificed for them and she is not interested in them as people. Her main interest is obtaining power and keeping it. Her children are tools she uses to this end. Jaime was also a tool to her at one point, and she became furious when he was no longer useful. She’ll do anything to get more power and she’ll choose more power over anything else. That’s not real love.

You can stretch the definition of love to encompass whatever Cersei feels for Jaime and her kids, but ultimately you are rendering the word meaningless.

People who abuse their spouse and/or children often believe they love them too. But is that real love? I don't think so. If you truly love someone, you don’t mistreat them so cruelly.

And Cersei is abusive to Jaime and Tommen. I hope we can all agree that making your young son beat another boy until he bleeds, and threatening to have that boy's tongue cut out if your son does not comply is horribly abusive. Likewise, making fun of your lover’s mutilated arm is also horribly abusive. If a man were doing these things to his child and wife, would you consider his love genuine? Or does Cersei get a free pass because she is a mother who uses her children to excuse her crimes and abuse?

[A Heart in Winter]

No, she never was in love with him.

[Wordsmith1]

I think that the only person she loves other than her kids is herself. the best quality she attributes to him, the only thing she really appreciated in him is that they look alike. Isn't it narcissistic? She sleeps with him because in him she sees the male version of her??

To put it bluntly; yes.

Cersei is probably mentally ill; she displays numerous symptons of Narssisistic, Borderline, and Personality Disorders; she's paranoid to the point of irrationality (anyone who isn't 100% with her is against her 100% and actively plotting against her), self-absorbed (they're plotting against her because she is obviously the most relevant thing in their lives), and incapable of understanding other's motives (she sees Ned leaving Winterfell as a threat because otherwise why would he leave the seat of his power; she doesn't even seem to consider that he might see it as his 'home'), and has nasty temper swings that are extremely irrational at times.

I think it's notable that Cersei, Jaime, AND Tyrion are children of incest themselves; Joanna Lannister was Twyin's cousin by blood even before they married (she was always "Joanna Lannister"), and while that's distant enough for it to be "legal" in Westeros (which actually was pretty common; brother's and sisters not okay, cousins are), it's still not good from a genetic standpoint, and might explain Cersei's horrid behavior during her life (which includes emotionally manipulating Jaime probably from childhood; every nearly every major bad decision he made in life, up to and including his joining the Kingsguard which itself led to every OTHER problem he has, as well physically tormenting Tyrion as a child and possibly murdering a friend of hers who showed interest in Jaime) and why Tyrion was born deformed.

Since Joffery's incest is even closer in relation to Twyin's "kissing cousins" relationship with Joanna, his mental instabilites simply were made that much more pronounced along with Cersei's truly awful parenting.

The reason they toned her down in the series I believe is because otherwise a major character is going to be the most absoloutely horrible human being imaginable yet a ton of on-screen plot drama will follow her.

[INCBlackbird]

I think she thinks she loves him. but really she loves the male version of herself, whom she thinks Jaime is. the moment she can't control him anymore or when he's not perfect anymore (when he loses his hand) she doesn't accept the real him. which is what love is in my opinion. She loves male Cersei and she doens't realise that Jaime is NOT male Cersei. for being so attached to eachother neither of them know the other quite so well in my opinion.

[Wordsmith1]

I think she thinks she loves him. but really she loves the male version of herself, whom she thinks Jaime is. the moment she can't control him anymore or when he's not perfect anymore (when he loses his hand) she doesn't accept the real him. which is what love is in my opinion. She loves male Cersei and she doens't realise that Jaime is NOT male Cersei. for being so attached to eachother neither of them know the other quite so well in my opinion.

I'm personally of the belief that since love is an emotional state and biochemical response in real life, all love is "real" love, and just because Disney and Robert Christian say otherwise doesn't make it not true; they're wrong about everything else in life too after all.

However, some versions of love are HUGELY unhealthy versions of love the same way all food is still food, but a bag of Lays and plate of celery are both food but one is something that's probably mostly bad for you.

Cersei loves her brother, but her love is warped self-love from her narssistic tendencies as well as mixed up with perverse sexual desire on part of both of them, and thus hugely unhealthy to both herself AND Jaime.

Healthy, meanigful love that is beneficial to both parties isn't about wild passion or deep sexual attraction, as anyone who's been married for more then three years can tell you; it's mutual emotional support and solidity between two individuals, even when you're both not at your best.

Cersei immediately stopped loving Jaime when he acted less and less like she approved, and Jaime's falling out of love with Cersei now that he's recognizing how manipulative she is

[INCBlackbird]

Her bad actions point towards incompetence, not lack of love. What is Cersei thinking during her most idiotic actions? She thinks they're good actions that will further/protect her family.

Most of this debate just comes down to opinion. I'm sure we all have our own set definition of love. Love itself is not akin to loving someone in action. I truly believe Cersei loves her family, but it's not a fairytale type of love. I do however think a lot of the naysayers to this issue also have an idealized version of love that Cersei doesn't fit under. Bad people can feel love and their actions aren't really the determining factor. I mean honestly, if actions are what defined loved the ones Cersei loves the most are common folk and and her families enemies and the ones she hates the most are the Lannisters. But actions are only a part of love and that's where Cersei's struggle is. I personally do know a few bad people with children and while I cannot stand the factors that cause me to label them bad (drugs, pills, alcohol...) I would never say they do not love their children.

Damn, I'm really sounding like a Cersei fan here... :D It really irks me when people can just say a mother of three is incapable of loving them.

I consider myself a huge Cersei fan and I don't think she loves anyone. she has no empathy and empathy is a requirement to love, this becomes really clear in her chapters! it's not real love! she believes that she loves them sure but notice how she's simply using them to get power. and no it's not just her abusive actions, it's her entire mindset. Joffrey, Tommen, Myrcella, Jaime and Tywin, of all of them she has a certain image in her head about who they are and that is what she "loves" this idea of them that is not at all true to who they really are, it's what Cersei has desided they are and when they prove her wrong she snaps (see Jaime, Tommen...) I don't think that's love under any definition right? that you "love" someone you've invented not the real person and you can't accept that they are different than you thought they were because you lack the empathy to realise that everyone has their own personality, not just you. that not everyone else is a pawn in the Cersei Lannister game.

I love this character because she's fascinating! and I'm not gonna change her to make her more sympathetic that would defeat the purpose of liking her as the character that she is.

[INCBlackbird]

I'm personally of the belief that since love is an emotional state and biochemical response in real life, all love is "real" love, and just because Disney and Robert Christian say otherwise doesn't make it not true; they're wrong about everything else in life too after all.

However, some versions of love are HUGELY unhealthy versions of love the same way all food is still food, but a bag of Lays and plate of celery are both food but one is something that's probably mostly bad for you.

Cersei loves her brother, but her love is warped self-love from her narssistic tendencies as well as mixed up with perverse sexual desire on part of both of them, and thus hugely unhealthy to both herself AND Jaime.

Healthy, meanigful love that is beneficial to both parties isn't about wild passion or deep sexual attraction, as anyone who's been married for more then three years can tell you; it's mutual emotional support and solidity between two individuals, even when you're both not at your best.

Cersei immediately stopped loving Jaime when he acted less and less like she approved, and Jaime's falling out of love with Cersei now that he's recognizing how manipulative she is

hhhm, yeah I guess it depends on how you look at it. however, my problem is not that her "love" is not perfect, the main reason why I don't think she loves Jaime is because she doesn't love "him" she loves the version of him that she believed in until he proved her otherwise and like you stated, she immediatly stopped loving him when he started acting different from what she expected.

[Wordsmith1]

hhhm, yeah I guess it depends on how you look at it. however, my problem is not that her "love" is not perfect, the main reason why I don't think she loves Jaime is because she doesn't love "him" she loves the version of him that she believed in until he proved her otherwise and like you stated, she immediatly stopped loving him when he started acting different from what she expected.

Yeah, loving a man because he's the gender swapped version of yourself physically and because only you are worthy of being loved is just about the least healthy love I can think of.

[LordStoneheart]

Oh yeah, this thread existed. I stand by my drug addict analogy, btw.

I consider myself a huge Cersei fan

I'm so sorry...

I don't think she loves anyone

As I've said a few times on here, not your definition of love or the popular one. I've seen this a lot. When it comes to love and Cersei, people seem to define love in the most fairytale way possible to show how bad Cersei is. I'll say right now, I hate the idiotic cunt and no matter how gruesome her fate is I will laugh and consider it well deserved, but for some reason this is just a view that irks me. Cersei treating people in her life like objects doesn't mean she doesn't love them. I don't think she's "incapable" of love, and I think diagnosing characters in fiction with mental disorders is pointless (unless that is the focus of the character, but its clear from the first three books that's not the case with Cersei.) It's possible for Cersei to be a bad person and feel love. (My first post in this thread says it better than what you quoted.)

[INCBlackbird]

I don't think love has to nessacaily be fairytale love to be love... as wordsmith1 has stated, love can be unhealthy and still be love. my point is however that Cersei lacks empathy, I hope we can agree on that? and when people lack empathy their "love" is entirely about self-interest. She "loves" Jaime and her kids when she can control them and use them to her own benefit, she loves the things they provide her with but she doesn't love "them".

to take it to an extreme level: I'm sure Ramsay thinks he loves Reek because Reek is created to provide Ramsay with everything he desires (that's where the obsession comes from) does that mean he loves Theon? I really don't think so...

i'd also like to point out that I don't think diagnosing fictional characters with mental disorders is pointless. I do it all the time cause it's a lot of fun but also because they are designed to be as realistic as possible and mental disorders are simply terms for certain issues that are frequent and therefor have been investigated by psychologists, obviously though they still vary from person to person because nothing about the human psyche is absolute (that's why psychology is considered a pseudo-science after all) so I think it's perfectly possible for an author to create a character and give them certain characteristics that mean they possibly have a certain personality disorder without the author intending for the character to have that personality disorder in the first place. it's not like the author has to deside "I will give this character this personality disorder so that means he/she will have to have all these characteristics" it doesn't work that way.

[imaginepageant]

I think Cersei loves Jaime, but in a very different way than most people would define love. She loves him for what he is, not who he is. She loves him for the idealized part of herself that he represents. She loves him as much as she's capable of loving anyone aside from herself.

[Lord of the Dreadfort]

Heh.

That's my answer.

[TimJames]

She only sees Jamie as an extension of herself.