What if... (This may be something or nothing)

[Ulthosian Stark]

(Accidently posted before done sorry if viewed unfinished)

Searched and couldn't find anything like this so here it goes.

My idea is that R'hollor and the Great Other may be a greenseer thing. Which is the best way to say this really haha. That maybe deep in the red temple of asshai or elsewhere, there is someone as powerful as bran or BR with a similar method of passing down the position, but instead of the weirnet being there thing, fires are.

Hear me out for a second this may be a shattered pot but who knows. If they only felt each other through such ways as special trees and fire, if their minds came into contact the fire one would feel the cold and death that is the childrens cave, and the other would feel the heat and flame.

This may lead to such a religion being created in Essos, where R'hollor is constantly pitted against the great other since that first meeting of mind, but since the children broke ties with men so long ago it would explain nothing has come of it in westeros.

The mental image of R'hollor I'm getting now is just someone like constantly on fire in some insane deep room in asshai lol. This may explain why Varys heard something answer in the flames when the sorcerer cut him and burned his fun bits. There is literally a person in this, an especially powerful one, like Bran, just the opposite affinity and environment.

This would make theirs the true song of ice and fire, and all others are just pawns. The ifeqevron (sp?) are speculated to be a sort of essosi COTF, so could they have had a thing for fire and the Red Faith is what came of it after they perished? Or it could be something meant to be good that has been twisted over time into the fanatical BURN EVERYTHING it is now

It could also be why anything particularly powerful requires a sacrifice, other then Beric and Thoros. That might have just been done to lead to Stoneheart, in some grand scheme like most big characters in this story have. BR obviously schemed his way into getting bran by being the 3 eyed raven. Maybe more human sacrifice in front of weirwoods is the same as making a sacrifice to R'hollor. Then the DG may have been a greenseer line of its own who knows, with the affinity of water hence the way they sacrifice, but I do like to just think of him as Cthulu. Now only element we have left is wind, storm god. If the old gods were the gods of nature these could be there current incarnates.

Itd be nuts if there was a green seer line for each as that'd be crazy chances if such greenseer powers being born into the world, but I find it more plausible there's just Bran and BR, and one for R'hollor. Not even that R'hollor is a greenseer just an equally powerful person. Why would only westerosi be able to have these if they all originally came from Essos?

[SunflashJT]

Interesting theory, only one way to find out if you are right... more novels.

[Ulthosian Stark]

Very, very true.

Just realized my last line is dumb, the first men got those powers from the COTF lol. There still is sorcery and such in Essos of course and power can be gained otherwise.

Anyone else care to comment?

The gyst of it is Bloodravens greenseer line was once bumped into by some sort of powerful fire mage/essosi fire aligned COTF, causing the latter to think there is a Great Other that is the embodiment of cold and death and nothing came from the formers contact since the COTF and green seers have been secluded for so long.

The fire side then began preaching against the other, toting fire and a line of especially powerful men/women/magical creature essentially became R'hollor, which is why Mel gets glimpses of what she asks for in the flames and Varys heard a voice in the flames as his fun bits were burnt. There actually is a person/something holding the title, just as Bloodraven holds his.

[Lazydrunk]

Something that has always driven me batshit was the way Mel was able to burn that warged eagle when Stannis showed up at the wall. In the midst of a battle, she identified an eagle as a warg, and manifested some previously unseen form of magic to light it up. How was she able figure that the eagle was a warg? Why was she able to make it combust? Why did she even give a shit in the first place?

I can't help but feel that the religion of R'hollor is partially designed to hunt and kill greenseers.

[The Great Cornholio!]

Something that has always driven me batshit was the way Mel was able to burn that warged eagle when Stannis showed up at the wall. In the midst of a battle, she identified an eagle as a warg, and manifested some previously unseen form of magic to light it up. How was she able figure that the eagle was a warg? Why was she able to make it combust? Why did she even give a shit in the first place?

I can't help but feel that the religion of R'hollor is partially designed to hunt and kill greenseers.

I had forgotten about that episode. I don't think it was designed to hunt greenseers, but I think she was able to identify other practitioners of magic in a similar way that greenseers can tell each other out.

[Ghosts Lunch]

Something that has always driven me batshit was the way Mel was able to burn that warged eagle when Stannis showed up at the wall. In the midst of a battle, she identified an eagle as a warg, and manifested some previously unseen form of magic to light it up. How was she able figure that the eagle was a warg? Why was she able to make it combust? Why did she even give a shit in the first place?

I can't help but feel that the religion of R'hollor is partially designed to hunt and kill greenseers.

I just figured she burned Varymyr in Orells Eagle because she wanted to maintain Stannis's element of surprise

If she had a thing with Greenseers or skinchangers in itself, she wouldn't be helping Jon Snow and Ghost would have bristled at her instead of being very comfortable even if JS does have blood of the first men and dragon in him

She would be wary of Brynden Rivers and Bran though as shown with the vision because of their comparative power

End of the day though, it was the Old Gods and the Children manipulating Dragonglass into weapons that helped throw back the Long Night, so she would presumably need their help again rather than persecuting them too intensely

[Toccs]

End of the day though, it was the Old Gods and the Children manipulating Dragonglass into weapons that helped throw back the Long Night, so she would presumably need their help again rather than persecuting them too intensely

The Children of the Forest were already using Obsidian to make tools and hunting implements long before the First Men or the Long Night ever happened, because like several real world culture who worked Obsidian, they had no metal.

There is actually nothing at all anywhere in the text that says the Children ever fought against the Others in any capacity

[Ulthosian Stark]

The last hero seemed out the children and they presumably gave him dragonglass and told him how to use it, thus at least helping the fight if not fighting themselves. It does suck that has to be assumed, but the LH did find the Children and they helped him. Can't really think of another way other then supplying him with Other-kryptonite

[Black Crow]

At the time the last of the 13 heroes was being hunted through the forest, when the children "helped" him. We can reasonably assume, given the context in which Bran remembers this [uncle Benjen lost in the Haunted Forest] that they afforded him sanctuary or otherwise saved him, but there's no evidence of wider aid, far less men and singers fighting side by side.

[Snow Dottir]

It could also be why anything particularly powerful requires a sacrifice, other then Beric and Thoros. That might have just been done to lead to Stoneheart, in some grand scheme like most big characters in this story have. BR obviously schemed his way into getting bran by being the 3 eyed raven. Maybe more human sacrifice in front of weirwoods is the same as making a sacrifice to R'hollor. Then the DG may have been a greenseer line of its own who knows, with the affinity of water hence the way they sacrifice, but I do like to just think of him as Cthulu. Now only element we have left is wind, storm god. If the old gods were the gods of nature these could be there current incarnates.

::snip::

I've kinda thought that the followers of R'hollor do a "fire" version of greenseeing through their fires anyway. They do a type of scrying, well we've seen Mel do it. The greenseers are called that simply because of the weirwoods :dunno:

The glass candles are very interesting,they seem to be obsidian/dragonglass and when Sam ask what feeds the flame Marwyn says "what feeds dragonfire?" <~~~IIRC

So maybe the birth of dragons enabled the candles to work again and only mage's like Marwyn really know about them ??

(the citadel seems to not like dragons, remember the story of the initiate who must "ignite" the black candle and can't???)

I personally, and this is a major point of contention for alot of people, I think the Old Gods are really the main duality, 2 forces in one always in struggle for balance. They (the Old Gods) are nature and everything involved in it. So basically they are everything, and all other religions or cults are humans interpretation of God(s) (i.e. old gods)? This is just an idea, I could be way off.

So then we have the drowned God, Many faced God, The 7, .....ect ect ect couldn't they all be "thralls" of the Old Gods which really embody everything?

In the end will we find out all the religions in planetos are really cultural interpretations of the Old Gods which are really just the creative/destructive forces of nature??

I hope this makes sense as I just rattled it off :blushing:

[Ulthosian Stark]

It does lol, were along the same lines except with you thinking its the individual on the Red side with the power. If it wasn't for Thoros bringing back Beric I'd think the same, Mel has her own power, but all those resurrections seemed to be of some intelligent design.

I believe their power is supplemented by Rhollor and absorbed through the flames, (basically bloodraven on fire), which would explain why Beric was brought back so many times. Just as Mel likes to say the Red God needs certain people, maybe he actually is pointer her to certain people, and others are just her way of quickening the fires to her own ends.

By Thralls, do you mean subordinates, like the LOTR Valar Ainar Maiar relationship? Or just that that's how theyre currently perceived by men? The kindly man agrees with you if the latter, he goes to great lengths to explain all the death gods are one many faced god. As does Mel to the effect R'hollor is the lord of light and happiness and is all these other "good" gods.

The idea old religions spawn new ones is a well accepted idea, with Zoroastrianism being similar to the Judeo-Christian and Islamic religions, its a common idea one spawned the rest, different places just put their own flair on it

[Snow Dottir]

It does lol, were along the same lines except with you thinking its the individual on the Red side with the power. If it wasn't for Thoros bringing back Beric I'd think the same, Mel has her own power, but all those resurrections seemed to be of some intelligent design.

I believe their power is supplemented by Rhollor and absorbed through the flames, (basically bloodraven on fire), which would explain why Beric was brought back so many times. Just as Mel likes to say the Red God needs certain people, maybe he actually is pointer her to certain people, and others are just her way of quickening the fires to her own ends.

By Thralls, do you mean subordinates, like the LOTR Valar Ainar Maiar relationship? Or just that that's how theyre currently perceived by men? The kindly man agrees with you if the latter, he goes to great lengths to explain all the death gods are one many faced god. As does Mel to the effect R'hollor is the lord of light and happiness and is all these other "good" gods.

The idea old religions spawn new ones is a well accepted idea, with Zoroastrianism being similar to the Judeo-Christian and Islamic religions, its a common idea one spawned the rest, different places just put their own flair on it

Hmmmmm.

I'm not sure what you mean by the bolded part^ This part gets so messy in explanations. I think as far as power goes its a struggle for balance,

after rereading the OP I think we see this really similarly

Mel certainly has her own tricks but she's still a suplicant and like you said gets "pointed" to certain people ect. I definitly don't think that the fire side is more powerful, we just see Red/Fire having more suplicants but in a Duality you can't have one thing without the other. Some people lean more one way than the other. There could be way more "cleric" types for the Icy side we havent seen.

"Thrall" as in people naming an aspect of god....I just used the word because the Drowned God is referred to as a thrall to the great other, but again it's really their name and take on God in the Iron Islands. The great other being again a part of the duality.

I think were on the same track. I dont see one side being Good or Bad they just are what they are.

Man I need more coffee...Fantasy religions are more complicated than actual ones it seems:):)

ETA: oooo and zoroastrianism is definitly an example of Duality

[Ulthosian Stark]

Hmmmmm.

I'm not sure what you mean by the bolded part^ This part gets so messy in explanations. I think as far as power goes its a struggle for balance,

after rereading the OP I think we see this really similarly

Mel certainly has her own tricks but she's still a suplicant and like you said gets "pointed" to certain people ect. I definitly don't think that the fire side is more powerful, we just see Red/Fire having more suplicants but in a Duality you can't have one thing without the other. Some people lean more one way than the other. There could be way more "cleric" types for the Icy side we havent seen.

"Thrall" as in people naming an aspect of god....I just used the word because the Drowned God is referred to as a thrall to the great other, but again it's really their name and take on God in the Iron Islands. The great other being again a part of the duality.

I think were on the same track. I dont see one side being Good or Bad they just are what they are.

Man I need more coffee...Fantasy religions are more complicated than actual ones it seems:):)

ETA: oooo and zoroastrianism is definitly an example of Duality

Yes we definitely are on the same track, by the bolded part I thought you meant that people like Moqorro and Melisandre are like greenseers of fire by your first post here, when my idea is that there is someone very similar to Bloodraven feeding power to these people and they aren't that powerful without him. So in my theory it would make R'hollor a title, passed on from one very powerful red priest to the next, just as Bloodraven is passing it down to Bran for the "other" side. Also that one of these priests touched one if the greenseers of BRs cave with his mind and perceived it as powerful, but cold and surrounded by death. Interpreting this as the Great Other.

[Snow Dottir]

Yes we definitely are on the same track, by the bolded part I thought you meant that people like Moqorro and Melisandre are like greenseers of fire by your first post here, when my idea is that there is someone very similar to Bloodraven feeding power to these people and they aren't that powerful without him. So in my theory it would make R'hollor a title, passed on from one very powerful red priest to the next, just as Bloodraven is passing it down to Bran for the "other" side. Also that one of these priests touched one if the greenseers of BRs cave with his mind and perceived it as powerful, but cold and surrounded by death. Interpreting this as the Great Other.

Wow thats a good theory! I see what your saying and it would definitly be plausable.

[Ulthosian Stark]

Thanks! I also don't think Grrm would be so cheesy as to give us an actual God figure like R'hollor and have it be some mystical force, it's much more along his style to make it a human just completely given over to it, and passed along when they've had enough. Or it could be immortality was achieved somehow, but I find that less keeping with the style of the stories ya know. They may live longer or even shorter once they're in their position, which is probably just being on fire like BR is intertwined with the roots of the Weirs.

Another little bit I'd like to add, I think it would have been a misunderstanding on the "R'hollors" part that the Old Gods Seer is the embodiment of death and cold.

Just as if ancient Christians saw some of the cannibalistic rituals of respect (not the eat your enemy ones, but the ones where they eat their dead relative "so they live on forever inside you") they'd probably seek to destroy the practice and convert them. I think that sort of ritual is from Papua New Guinea, but they also used to eat their enemies to gain their power.

They wouldn't stop and be like oh wait why are they doing this? They wouldn't wait to learn the intention is actually honorable to them, just that its evil and needs to stop. Which is where I think the whole religion of R'hollor sprouts, as a misunderstanding

[Snow Dottir]

Thanks! I also don't think Grrm would be so cheesy as to give us an actual God figure like R'hollor and have it be some mystical force, it's much more along his style to make it a human just completely given over to it, and passed along when they've had enough. Or it could be immortality was achieved somehow, but I find that less keeping with the style of the stories ya know. They may live longer or even shorter once they're in their position, which is probably just being on fire like BR is intertwined with the roots of the Weirs.

Another little bit I'd like to add, I think it would have been a misunderstanding on the "R'hollors" part that the Old Gods Seer is the embodiment of death and cold.

Just as if ancient Christians saw some of the cannibalistic rituals of respect (not the eat your enemy ones, but the ones where they eat their dead relative "so they live on forever inside you") they'd probably seek to destroy the practice and convert them. I think that sort of ritual is from Papua New Guinea, but they also used to eat their enemies to gain their power.

They wouldn't stop and be like oh wait why are they doing this? They wouldn't wait to learn the intention is actually honorable to them, just that its evil and needs to stop. Which is where I think the whole religion of R'hollor sprouts, as a misunderstanding

Agreee!!! wholeheartedly.

It's like the "Red Raloos" are fanatical when it comes to the greenseers. They see them as a force that must be destroyed instead of an essential aspect of a duality that is a part of even their nature. (No light without dark, life without death...and so on) They have misunderstood as you've said resulting in a massive inbalance IMO.

[Ulthosian Stark]

For sure, another thought I've had is GRRM is taking a shot at medieval Christianity with the Red God, he claims to be a god of light happiness etc, but horrible acts are done in his name and not many good ones. Also work missionaries do is not good, an example is how many a tribe has almost been wiped out by diseases they brought in, or have some negative effect by changing the natives lifestyle. Like, again, in Papua New Guinea, missionaries gave the tribes normal western clothes, shirts pants etc. The humidity there is so bad though that wearing damp clothes all the time literally got people sick.

You could liken Mel and Stannis' war to a sort of Crusade, but instead of crucifying criminals etc they burn them.