Black Crow

I think that you may be missing the obvious, that Jon will become King of Winter

I'm not bound up enough in this at the moment to address the innards of these arguments [for and against] at the depth they require, but the point which no-one, and especially the R+L=J crowd, need to appreciate is that GRRM uses a lot of parallel symbolism, here, there and indeed everywhere in his writing and as we've commented over the years, a simple R+L=J is simply not his style - whatever the real answer might be.

So are we looking at a hint about that old dream, and if so why now [ok, March] ?

I'm much inclined to agree. The trouble with the "accepted" version so long hosted by the R+L=J crowd is that it's so incomplete. There's no reason to doubt that the "Tower of Joy" is the one on the Dornish border, but all that we actually get so far is Lord Eddard's "fever dream" which doesn't actually tell a complete story and which GRRM has explicitly warned isn't reliable. Bits are missing and in particular Howland Reed ...

If true it would certainly provide an explanation for Howland Reed's exile

Misleading though. Emphasises that of GRRM doesn't get his finger out, the show is going to become canon

I'll cheerfully that I really don't know enough about the Dreamtime to comment sensibly, but it certainly sounds as though GRRM's "Dreamers" could well be connected to the Dreamtime rather than dreaming randomly so to speak

As I said, its wide open to question whether the fall was metaphorical or exaggerated, but that introduction very clearly suggests that a significant and widely known event occurs - which hasn't so far happened in the published story.

The "technicalities" are obviously open to interpretation, whether its blowing away, whether it may be said to have fallen because Jon let some of the Wildings through - escaping the real threat - or whether it literally comes down with a bump, but somehow I think that the slip is suggesting the latter option

I'd be tempted to say, curiously quiet, with nothing since that mention months ago of a seeing his UK publishers during a visit to London Current Blog entry is about casting for Dunk and Egg However... Previous entry, posted by the Minions of Fevre River, concerns a colouring book and starts with this curious line: Long before the Wall fell, the Targaryens reigned with fire and blood. "Long before the Wall fell" !!! Is this an inadvertent slip by his minions ?

The way I'm coming to see it is a simple question of logistics.

Still here, still alive and still living in hope, though there's a growing suspicion GRRM may now be aiming to wrap with WoW

Sounds like it. A Christmas announcement on the blog could be worth looking out for

Still alive, despite the weather here

Had he been a dragonslayer, he would have known to duck

toss away

Totally off-topic, but GRRM's latest Notablog entry has announced that HBO are doing a series of the Dunk and Egg stories

As to the first, you'll need to ask Nadden, but if I recall aright, his argument was that the White Walkers are not wargs, but reflections in his mirror. I may be mistaken, but he can best explain As to the second, possibly, but we'll have to wait and see. Clearly Patchface is being controlled by someone [or something] as yet unknown

I don't think that the thread is being hi-jacked. As Melifeather says, this is the way that Heresy has worked for years However... As I also said earlier. This is a novel, not an account of an actual historical event. It all exists in GRRM's head and on GRRM's pages; nowhere else. So rocks - or mirrors are found there, not our our heads GRRM describes a report of dead bodies lying around a camp-site with a shelter built against a rock. Then the three rangers actually arrive there and find no bodies. Understandable puzzlement. One ranger remains behind with the horses and drops out of the narrative until much later. Of the other two, one is sent up a tree to see if there is any sign of a fire further away. The remaining ranger advances into the former camp. Movement is seen in the wood. First a single individual emerges to face Ser Waymar, the ranger in the camp, then others join him. Ser Waymar challenges. The two face off and the leading figure fights then kills him. This episode is largely witnessed by the ranger up the tree, but there's no reason to suppose its not happening as described. At no point in the text is there the remotest suggestion that that the rock against which the shelter is built is a black mirror/obsidian. As I said before, although unlikely this is a fantasy so its possible, but... the author needs to tell us. He doesn't even suggest it. This is important because the object of this chapter is to introduce us to the White Walkers. If it is really intended to reveal them as an illusion in a mirror, then GRRM needs to show that. He needs to reveal it to us on the page, then or afterwards. Its important on the other hand to introduce the Walkers as real because other characters see them too as the story goes on, most notably thus far when Sam stabs one below the Fist

Yeah, I don't post much myself these days, but I still look in both to the thread and to GRRM's blog. Why ? Well hope springs eternal. Take care of yourself, enjoy those other things [I do too], but at least look in from time to time

Probably not. Old Nan speaks of them coming for the first time during the Long Night If we look at this sequence it not only makes sense but completely overturns the popular scenario peddled by Our Mel, ie; 1. Regular seasons and peoples - including [among others] skinchangers/wargs 2. Enter the Dragons and the prospect of the Fiery hell of an endless summer 3. The Old Gods fight back by blocking it with the Long Night 4. This works in the short term but the regular seasons are screwed 5. A final battle is brewing and the Targaryens [and Mel] aint the good guys

Something else to consider here is the nature of the blue-eyed lot. Although I contrasted them with the Dragons, I wouldn't necessarily equate them I still hold by my earlier theory that the Walkers are skinchangers/wargs, who have escaped flesh hosts to create new ones of snow and ice and cold. I won't trouble you by repeating the essay, but the point is that the Walkers may not be new in themselves but are "winterised" Wargs, adapted to suit a Long Night imposed on them by the appearance of the Dragons. night

Its not a bad idea. If we look at this logically [yes, yes, I know] Westeros and Essos both seem very ordinary and we've spent years discussing the historical parallels There are, however, two things which are unique and which can't be explained away by "ordinary" mythology. On the one hand there's the Ice and with it the Long Night and the blue-eyed lot. On the other hand there's the Fire and the Dragons. The two are obviously connected and the Dragons are the more "alien" of the two, ie; it was the creating of the Dragons which screwed things up

Aint that from Harry Potter ?

I believe that its a 2024 calendar image see GRRM's notablog for January 10