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Black Crow

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Everything posted by Black Crow

  1. Welcome to Heresy 209, the latest iteration of a thread which has been running here since 2011 and which offers a sometimes quirky platform to explore themes in far greater depth than is usually the case. Although wide-ranging those themes tend to revolve around the central conflict between Ice and Fire and the mysteries of the Musgrave Ritual that is Winterfell, the Wall and the Heart of Darkness that lies beyond. The Heresy lies in questioning whether this will be resolved by Jon Snow leading the Royal Targaryen Air Force to a fiery victory on the banks of the Trident before taking his rightful [?] place on the Iron Thone. Don't be intimidated by the thread, and don't be afraid to stray off the topic of the moment, just plunge in and enjoy it even if only to ask questions, because we miserable heretics have built up a formidable body of knowledge over the years, especially when it comes to the blue-eyed lot. All we ask is that you respect the local house rules in my signature block.
  2. Black Crow

    Heresy 209 Of Ice and of Fire

    Well if you read the passage innocent of any excitement over the possible involvement of Lyanna, who isn't even mentioned in the exchange, that's pretty well exactly what happens. The three knights are waiting by the tower, which feels like a rendezvous rather than the Alamo. The posse rides up, and the sheriff offers them the chance to surrender They refuse, because surrendering is for wimps They then fight to the death because they are the last holdouts who don't want to surrender, not because they are blocking a rescue attempt. What troubles Lord Eddard is that the fight was futile and pointless and that his friends died needlessly.
  3. Black Crow

    Heresy 209 Of Ice and of Fire

    More like skin-changing blood being important, but I'd question whether people like Mel actually appreciate that, ie they know that bloodline X is important but don't know why and so ignore the fact that bloodline Y might be equally important
  4. Black Crow

    Heresy 209 Of Ice and of Fire

    Indeed and in the past I've also pointed out the similarities with the early duel scene in The Three Musketeers - which isn't to say that the opener to Once upon a Time in the West was itself based on the The Three Musketeers. The point of this being that whilst GRRM may have looked to either or both for his inspiration what he was recreating wasn't a chance encounter on the road or a last desperate defence, but a formal pre-agreed rencounter.
  5. Black Crow

    Heresy 209 Of Ice and of Fire

    But what if its the mother's blood, not the father's which is important?
  6. Black Crow

    Heresy 209 Of Ice and of Fire

    Seems pretty reasonable to me
  7. Black Crow

    Heresy 209 Of Ice and of Fire

    It rather depends on how the dream is interpreted and whether there is an agenda behind it. The R+L=J crowd do themselves a disservice in trying to pretend that it is a faithful recollection of actual events, because it can be interpreted that way - but not literally. I think that there was indeed a fight at the tower and that it ended as it did, because the burying of the dead was a bitter memory after he was awakened. It is significant though that the dream was triggered by the pointlessness of the fight with Jaime's men, which suggests that the "old dream" was something that had been on Lord Eddard's conscience for a long time. What we don't know is whether the "old dream" was played out in its entirety, ie; did the dream always start off with the meeting and the conversation and then move on to the death of Lyanna, or was he accustomed to dreaming of them separately and the dream of the knights ending with their deaths? The R+L=J theory rests, so far as the dream is concerned, on the proposition that for whatever reason the Kingsguard fought to the death outside the tower because Lyanna and her new-born son were inside the tower. There are a number of problems with this scenario which I won't rehearse again, but separating the fight and the death scene not only destroys that particular argument but underscores the pointlessness of the of both fights
  8. Black Crow

    Heresy 209 Of Ice and of Fire

    I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.
  9. Black Crow

    Heresy 209 Of Ice and of Fire

    Worse there seems to be a lack of desire to actually get down and do it
  10. Black Crow

    Heresy 209 Of Ice and of Fire

    Given the tenuous relationship between the text and the mummers version I wouldn't be surprised to find Stannis alive and well at the end
  11. Black Crow

    Heresy 209 Of Ice and of Fire

    Where did the three broken tines come from? The text only references "a foot of shattered antler, the tines broken off"
  12. Black Crow

    Heresy 209 Of Ice and of Fire

    Ice preserves. Craster's sons are replenishing their number, not initiating the process. We don't know how far back the curse extends.
  13. Black Crow

    Heresy 209 Of Ice and of Fire

    As to the first I agree As to the second, yes but perhaps not literally. I'm still going with the walkers being the icy equivalent of Mel's shadow-babies. That of course opens the question of who is working the magic to create them and while there's a natural tendency to look for people it may in fact be the hive mind of the trees which the Greeshka/Children aspire to go into
  14. Black Crow

    Heresy 209 Of Ice and of Fire

    Basically nothing. As you say, she is said to have come from Whitetree and got Craster by a man of the Nights Watch. The story that Ygritte heard was that she then turned up with him at the Wall and was jeered at and chased off by the sentries. The assumption is that she was just looking for her lover and an entry visa. However, given the business of the curse I can't help wondering whether she was foreshadowing Gilly and running one step ahead of young Craster's brothers.
  15. Black Crow

    Heresy 209 Of Ice and of Fire

    He'll correct me if I'm wrong but rather I thought Matthew's point is that both the attack on Royce and later on Benjen's party, took place in the vicinity of Craster's, but yet he and his remained untouched
  16. Black Crow

    Heresy 209 Of Ice and of Fire

    As I've suggested before, trying to do a runner is exactly what I've suggested Craster's mother was up to. The point about Craster's survival is well made and it suggests that his neighbours were unwilling to go knocking - but why?
  17. Black Crow

    Heresy 209 Of Ice and of Fire

    Perfectly true but you can't advance a theory which is contradicted by the only extant example
  18. Black Crow

    Heresy 209 Of Ice and of Fire

    I don't disagree, but it was Ygritte who spoke of him baring the heavy curse. I would return to earlier suggestions that Craster may not be the one initiating the process, but that the women themselves may be, or were, more actively involved than at first appears. Craster's beliefs may not be at the centre of what's happening but are his rationalisation of a situation in which he finds himself to be as trapped as the women appear to be. As I mentioned earlier his mother appeared to be trying to do a Gilly, and while three of the women urged Sam to get Gilly and her baby away before his brothers tooled up, they themselves made no attempt to escape
  19. Black Crow

    Heresy 209 Of Ice and of Fire

    There's no suggestion that Craster's son by Gilly is deformed
  20. Black Crow

    Heresy 209 Of Ice and of Fire

    Well that's because you keep bringing it up GRRM is fond of his unreliable narrators, but the context of neither the Jon/Gilly conversation and the coven/Sam conversation suggests that we're being misled and that on the contrary we're being given important, albeit dramatically cryptic, information. Notwithstanding your personal scepticism, the text is there and nothing we have learned since contradicts us. There may be a little clumsiness in the phrasing by the author but none of the characters are in any doubt as to what they are telling the reader.
  21. Black Crow

    Heresy 209 Of Ice and of Fire

    That returns to the point about what did Benjen know and if he knew why didn't he tell his big brother. Pretty well all we know of what was going on at Craster's rests on the testimony of his wives, with cryptic hints that other Wildlings and the Watch at the very least knew something dodgy was going on. However all of them, whether truthful or mistaken, are talking of an ongoing event without a known starting point. Craster has been giving up his sons to the "cold gods, the ones who come in the night" for so long as anyone can remember; there isn't the slightest suggestion its news, or even that it started 10 years ago or whenever, and indeed Ygritte's reference toa curse suggests that whatever the arrangement or its purpose its being going on since before Craster himself was born - I've suggested before that the attempt to get him across the Wall was down to his mother trying to do a Gilly rather than a demand for maintenance payments
  22. Black Crow

    Heresy 209 Of Ice and of Fire

    Fascinating stuff and very much reinforces the view that this is a story of Westeros and that the answers to what's going on will be found in Westeros rather than the mysterious east - or perhaps any of the other stuff in the World Book, or that digression into House Targaryen
  23. Black Crow

    Heresy 209 Of Ice and of Fire

    Ah... The Three Amigos!
  24. Black Crow

    Heresy 209 Of Ice and of Fire

    Well at least we won't have to puzzle over R+L=J or be assured that its the central mystery around which everything revolves
  25. Black Crow

    Heresy 209 Of Ice and of Fire

    Well who knows. Given that whatever our differences we miserable heretics don't generally subscribe to "the story we think we know" it could be a blast.
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