Lady Blizzardborn Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 Hello and welcome back to Advanced Crackpottery. For those unfamiliar with the series, I basically throw out somewhat random ideas that are technically possible but have little (if any) textual support. This is meant for entertainment and exercising our creative muscles. I really wish I'd posted my idea about BTB/LH/NK/WTF when I first thought of it, instead of waiting to have time to do sufficient research to back it up. Because in the time I was waiting, it's been done to death, as other posters have had the same ideas to an extent. Anyway, rather than rehash all of that, I'm going to talk about the star-crossed love of Westeros' own Romeo & Juliet...Night's King and his Queen. For the purposes of this thread, the following will be taken into account:1. The popular idea that the War for the Dawn ended with a peace treaty.2. The basics of what happened are real, not just scary stories.3. The Others are not just evil incarnate.4. If I bring my Wighting Theory into it (I don't plan to, but it could happen) then my Wighting Theory must be considered at least temporarily correct.5. Night's King was a Stark named Brandon. This one is not necessary for the theory to work, it's just so I don't have to keep typing out "13th Lord Commander" throughout the OP. Ok, so the War for the Dawn is over, the Wall is going up, and a Stark has been elected Lord Commander. Let's say that the Wall is demarcation for a sort of demilitarized zone, and that as part of the treaty, humans don't go past a designated point beyond the Wall, and both sides agree not to cause any trouble in the DMZ. One night our Brandon is out on his patrol shift--because that's the way he rolls as LC--enjoying the fresh air, when he spots the most beautiful creature he's ever seen. Pale skin, gorgeous blue eyes, flowing white hair. She's like winter's beauty personified. He follows her, catches up (maybe they had a flirty little chase) and they strike up a conversation, exchange names, all that sort of thing. Maybe it's love at first sight. Maybe they meet in secret some more times, but the point is that they fell in love. So, being in the throes of euphoria they decide, what the heck, let's get married! Their respective cultures have been at peace for a while now, so it should be fine, right? Unfortunately for our two young lovebirds, their families are not as understanding as they'd hoped. Nor does either culture agree that integration is a good idea. They do get some Others and Wildlings on their side, and even some Westerosi are supportive. But the ones who aren't supportive? They start a smear campaign. The Boltons in particular have fun getting to commit all kinds of atrocities and blame them on Night's King, who just happens to be from the family they hate most in the world. While all this has been going on, Juliet's family has been looking for her. Being The Great Other's daughter was always kind of a pain and she had a tendency to wander off, but when she stayed gone Daddy got worried. He's had his soldiers scouring their territory and it seems she disappeared without a trace. Naturally he's worried about his little girl. Did she discover an unknown dragon cave and get eaten? Accidentally step on some obsidian? Finally one day they get word that she's been spotted...on the Wall. So what's the first conclusion that's jumped? Kidnapping. Juliet would never willing go with one of those men things. She must have been taken against her will and is being kept prisoner (and Rhaegar thought he was being so original). Unfortunately, because that darn Wall has magic in it, they can't just go get her back. But that doesn't mean they don't try anyway. As you can imagine, the Wildings get a bit freaked out by being caught in the middle of this. Down in Winterfell, King in the North Stark is having a heck of a time making excuses for his brother. The supposed crimes of Night's King are mounting and the people want him to do something. But he doesn't have enough men to challenge his brother successfully, so he starts sending envoys beyond the Wall. Joramun is having as much trouble with his own people as Stark is and is relieved to get KitN's message about maybe teaming up to stop this nonsense before they end up with another all-out war on their hands. It takes a while to coordinate the details but finally they work it out. Joramun and his people get through the Wall courtesy of King Stark's assistance and they take their armies to the Nightfort. They explain that Brandon and Juliet have unwittingly violated the peace treaty that says the men and the Others will have nothing to do with one another, and that Juliet's family is threatening to come back and finish what they started during the Long Night. But Brandon refuses to be separated from his wife, and she's not too fond of the idea of leaving him either. Parley over, they fight. Brandon loses. Thus ends the reign of Night's King. As to what happened next, I think Night's Queen was killed in the fighting and Brandon was banished. The now famous/infamous scene in Season 4 has me thinking that our friend Bran went to live with the Others, who didn't like him but weren't allowed to kill him (T.G. took pity on the brokenhearted guy who really had loved Juliet), and has spent the last 8,000 years getting more and more bitter about his wife's death, and building an army of rogue Others (and Otherized humans) to go back and take revenge on all of Westeros for being narrow-minded and prone to believe gossip. If that's the case, then the Others and Men will have to team up to defeat him. Fun Twist: Remember how Old Nan said that Wildling women lay with the Others during the Long Night? Juliet could be only half-Other, which would explain how it's possible that she and Brandon could potentially reproduce. And her being part wildling would also potentially make her related to Joramun, giving him yet another reason to have to help solve the mess. Now, do I think this is likely? Not really. I think it's possible. It does give us Others who aren't all-out evil even if they would rather mankind didn't exist. But I readily admit this does nothing to explain the wonky seasons, the first Long Night, or the worldwide weird connections between things like oily black stones on each continent. Comments and questions welcome. Oh, and I haven't read TWOIAF sections pertaining to this yet. If there's anything in there that contradicts this, well I did call it Advanced Crackpottery after all. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePosterThatWasPromised Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 I like it, I think it's interesting, and I'd rather a level of depth to the White Walkers that would actually push them to attacking rather than just attacking for the sake of killing people. The nooks and crannies need to be worked out but it's a cool theory. One thing though: Fun Twist: Remember how Old Nan said that Wildling women lay with the Others during the Long Night? Juliet could be only half-Other, which would explain how it's possible that she and Brandon could potentially reproduce. And her being part wildling would also potentially make her related to Joramun, giving him yet another reason to have to help solve the mess. If her and Brandon being able to reproduce hinges on her being a half-Other, how the hell did her parents reproduce to make her? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted February 8, 2015 Author Share Posted February 8, 2015 I like it, I think it's interesting, and I'd rather a level of depth to the White Walkers that would actually push them to attacking rather than just attacking for the sake of killing people. The nooks and crannies need to be worked out but it's a cool theory. One thing though: If her and Brandon being able to reproduce hinges on her being a half-Other, how the hell did her parents reproduce to make her? Thank you! Well I've never had a problem with her being full Other, but I've seen people on the forums suggest that a male human would be unable to mate with a female Other because...cold. Apparently frostbite is a concern? We have Old Nan saying that female humans can mate with male Others, but Night's King is the only man we know of who may have slept with an Other. There's still debate over whether or not there are female Others at all, and whether or not Night's Queen was an Other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazfemur Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Thank you! Well I've never had a problem with her being full Other, but I've seen people on the forums suggest that a male human would be unable to mate with a female Other because...cold. Apparently frostbite is a concern? We have Old Nan saying that female humans can mate with male Others, but Night's King is the only man we know of who may have slept with an Other. There's still debate over whether or not there are female Others at all, and whether or not Night's Queen was an Other. again, welcome back :) it's interesting as hell, but granted, there's a lot of fic in there. it's cool because i do the same thing haha. i cant shake that we havent seen any female Other yet, and the watch hasnt been the most upstanding group, and records were eliminated, etc. I've gone SO far as to brainstorm that maybe The Night's Queen was in fact a female direwolf with blue eyes. I'm all over the place, and will be until more is released haha. Think of it, if 13LC was a Stark, wouldnt he have a wolf? And then i was thinking, well, they dont mention him having one, but whos to say he didnt have one to begin with? Was there anything in the text that spoke of a legendary wolf, maybe a rabid one, a huge one.. and then it hit me. what if TNQ was a wolf? and she was named, TNQ. i cant keep typing this somebody help me. anyways, with this post: you know i agree on many of the points. a Stark, "Bran" is still in the air, because that can be construed as that infamous Coldhands line, "Im your monster, Brandon Stark" - and i dont want to get intot hat territory because i personalyl dont want CH even near TNK. With him "going to live with" The Others. I can agree with this under the following idea: it's said TLH went to go find the children, then The Others descended upon him, but he made it away. What if, Others descended on him, turned him, he made his way back to TNW AS an Other, and thats when (after an apparent 13-year reign) they exiled him north, and he figured nowhere else to go but those that already turned him? Unless, they considered the night's king's 13-year reign before he was turned and exiled. so much mental exercise. Old nan's idea of "females laid with Others," further supports the fact that there are no female Others. She never said males slept with female Others (if youre excluding TNQ), there are no further instances of her saying female Other or males sleeping with female Others. If you're a fan of there being a female Night's Queen, which is definitely what this thread suggests, if i were in your shoes i would do my best to theorize that she's either buried, or imprisoned, in Winterfell's Crypts. That, or The Night's King's motive for all this is vengeance over her death. If youre a NQ believer, that would be the direction id take. I think i may be the only, if not one of the very few, that doesnt believe in a female Other, and thinks she's a lie. Unless "she" was his direwolf ;) Think of it, a member of the watch, that cant marry, or wife, his female companion would be his queen. I dont know, i need more time. and it appears time is all i will seem to have for the next year at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted February 10, 2015 Author Share Posted February 10, 2015 again, welcome back :) it's interesting as hell, but granted, there's a lot of fic in there. it's cool because i do the same thing haha. i cant shake that we havent seen any female Other yet, and the watch hasnt been the most upstanding group, and records were eliminated, etc. I've gone SO far as to brainstorm that maybe The Night's Queen was in fact a female direwolf with blue eyes. I'm all over the place, and will be until more is released haha. Think of it, if 13LC was a Stark, wouldnt he have a wolf? And then i was thinking, well, they dont mention him having one, but whos to say he didnt have one to begin with? Was there anything in the text that spoke of a legendary wolf, maybe a rabid one, a huge one.. and then it hit me. what if TNQ was a wolf? and she was named, TNQ. i cant keep typing this somebody help me. anyways, with this post: you know i agree on many of the points. a Stark, "Bran" is still in the air, because that can be construed as that infamous Coldhands line, "Im your monster, Brandon Stark" - and i dont want to get intot hat territory because i personalyl dont want CH even near TNK. With him "going to live with" The Others. I can agree with this under the following idea: it's said TLH went to go find the children, then The Others descended upon him, but he made it away. What if, Others descended on him, turned him, he made his way back to TNW AS an Other, and thats when (after an apparent 13-year reign) they exiled him north, and he figured nowhere else to go but those that already turned him? Unless, they considered the night's king's 13-year reign before he was turned and exiled. so much mental exercise. Old nan's idea of "females laid with Others," further supports the fact that there are no female Others. She never said males slept with female Others (if youre excluding TNQ), there are no further instances of her saying female Other or males sleeping with female Others. If you're a fan of there being a female Night's Queen, which is definitely what this thread suggests, if i were in your shoes i would do my best to theorize that she's either buried, or imprisoned, in Winterfell's Crypts. That, or The Night's King's motive for all this is vengeance over her death. If youre a NQ believer, that would be the direction id take. I think i may be the only, if not one of the very few, that doesnt believe in a female Other, and thinks she's a lie. Unless "she" was his direwolf ;) Think of it, a member of the watch, that cant marry, or wife, his female companion would be his queen. I dont know, i need more time. and it appears time is all i will seem to have for the next year at least. Thank you. Please don't refer to my work as fic. It's just a slightly nicer way of saying fan fic, which this is not. Fan fic would have lots of stilted dialogue and sex scenes. Given the subject matter I think you have to agree that without our imaginations there's not much to go on--we HAVE to add to it...as I see you've done with your own latest theory, and that brings me to... I think you've gone too far with Night's Queen BEING a direwolf, but I bet she could warg the heck out of one. :) I still say it's sexist to claim we haven't seen any female Others. For all we know they could be a matriarchal society where the women are the warriors and the men stay home and do the laundry. How do we know the gender of all of the Others in the AGoT prologue? Why just assume that they're all male? The line is actually "Your monster, Brandon Stark," and is about Bloodraven, not about Coldhands himself. He's saying "Brandon Stark, the guy we're going to is a monster, but he's your monster." So CH is fairly safe for now. ;) You're a bit mixed up. I suggested that BRomeo went to live with the Others AFTER he was deposed, not before. I know you think he was turned beforehand, but that's not in my theory. He was turned BY his queen, according to the story we have. It's made to sound like she live-wighted him, and cast spells on him, but maybe they were just in love *cue violins* Old Nan's saying that Wildling women lay with Others does not support the idea that there are no female Others. It does support the idea that Old Nan thinks Wildling girls are sluts who'll sleep with anybody. And if, as some have suggested, there are temperature issues with male human to female Other mating, then there wouldn't be stories about that happening. Also do keep in mind that Old Nan hasn't finished any of the stories she's told. She better be alive, or have a relative she told the tales to or something! Maybe she told little Beth Cassel all the stories and Beth can give us more info. The bolded is exactly what I'm going for. He is avenging his bride who would still be alive if the people of Westeros hadn't been so narrow-minded about human-Other relationships and hadn't believed the gossip about him (which wasn't remotely true). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazfemur Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Thank you. Please don't refer to my work as fic. It's just a slightly nicer way of saying fan fic, which this is not. Fan fic would have lots of stilted dialogue and sex scenes. Given the subject matter I think you have to agree that without our imaginations there's not much to go on--we HAVE to add to it...as I see you've done with your own latest theory, and that brings me to... I think you've gone too far with Night's Queen BEING a direwolf, but I bet she could warg the heck out of one. :) I still say it's sexist to claim we haven't seen any female Others. For all we know they could be a matriarchal society where the women are the warriors and the men stay home and do the laundry. How do we know the gender of all of the Others in the AGoT prologue? Why just assume that they're all male? The line is actually "Your monster, Brandon Stark," and is about Bloodraven, not about Coldhands himself. He's saying "Brandon Stark, the guy we're going to is a monster, but he's your monster." So CH is fairly safe for now. ;) You're a bit mixed up. I suggested that BRomeo went to live with the Others AFTER he was deposed, not before. I know you think he was turned beforehand, but that's not in my theory. He was turned BY his queen, according to the story we have. It's made to sound like she live-wighted him, and cast spells on him, but maybe they were just in love *cue violins* Old Nan's saying that Wildling women lay with Others does not support the idea that there are no female Others. It does support the idea that Old Nan thinks Wildling girls are sluts who'll sleep with anybody. And if, as some have suggested, there are temperature issues with male human to female Other mating, then there wouldn't be stories about that happening. Also do keep in mind that Old Nan hasn't finished any of the stories she's told. She better be alive, or have a relative she told the tales to or something! Maybe she told little Beth Cassel all the stories and Beth can give us more info. The bolded is exactly what I'm going for. He is avenging his bride who would still be alive if the people of Westeros hadn't been so narrow-minded about human-Other relationships and hadn't believed the gossip about him (which wasn't remotely true). apologies if i've offended, it clearly wasnt my intention. mentally, placing her as a direwolf would satisfy him being a stark, her being female, and verifyt he stipulation that there still wouldnt be female Others (basically all my idead put together lmao) it's completely batshitstorm crazy, and not even i buy a second of any of it. You do have a point with females. I would only stress that weve only seen them TAKE males, and further, the 13 in THAT episode, and those we've seen, appeared male. It's not to say females arent off-camera, or, off-area when reading, i of course acknowledge that. Think if it though, the nonexistence (which COULD very well happen) would mean the reason they exiled TNK to be PROVEN false, and throws into question eveyrthing theyve told you throughout time. "All Crows Are Liars." Still of course id consider her being alive (or dead) a possibility. its the magnificence of this entire debate, SIdebar: i do have an issue, with the "mating" between Others. The power was clearly transferred from one vessel, to the baby. THere was no mating involved (further, of my concept that TNK still follows the oath's basic tennents). This is, of course, going strictly by the show, which i know i should (but it's all we have at the moment). There's not to debate that the 13 in black, are the only ones that follow the oath (heh heh, if you get where THAT concept was going). It's still in a state where quite simply we need more. In regards to your bolded, IF the queen did exist, do you: 1) believe she was killed 2) believe she existed, was killed, and her remains are in winterfell's crypts (TNK just wants to rest by her side) 3) believe she existed, however she's alive, imprisoned in winterfell's crypts (TNK wants tofind her, release her, and exact vengeance) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted February 13, 2015 Author Share Posted February 13, 2015 apologies if i've offended, it clearly wasnt my intention. mentally, placing her as a direwolf would satisfy him being a stark, her being female, and verifyt he stipulation that there still wouldnt be female Others (basically all my idead put together lmao) it's completely batshitstorm crazy, and not even i buy a second of any of it. You do have a point with females. I would only stress that weve only seen them TAKE males, and further, the 13 in THAT episode, and those we've seen, appeared male. It's not to say females arent off-camera, or, off-area when reading, i of course acknowledge that. Think if it though, the nonexistence (which COULD very well happen) would mean the reason they exiled TNK to be PROVEN false, and throws into question eveyrthing theyve told you throughout time. "All Crows Are Liars." Still of course id consider her being alive (or dead) a possibility. its the magnificence of this entire debate, SIdebar: i do have an issue, with the "mating" between Others. The power was clearly transferred from one vessel, to the baby. THere was no mating involved (further, of my concept that TNK still follows the oath's basic tennents). This is, of course, going strictly by the show, which i know i should (but it's all we have at the moment). There's not to debate that the 13 in black, are the only ones that follow the oath (heh heh, if you get where THAT concept was going). It's still in a state where quite simply we need more. In regards to your bolded, IF the queen did exist, do you: 1) believe she was killed 2) believe she existed, was killed, and her remains are in winterfell's crypts (TNK just wants to rest by her side) 3) believe she existed, however she's alive, imprisoned in winterfell's crypts (TNK wants tofind her, release her, and exact vengeance) Nah, not offended, just a bit annoyed at first. ;) The show does have its merits but since what happened with the baby (covered in my Wighting Theory, by the way) hasn't been in the books. We're still in the dark on that with regard to canon. Absolutely. But you and I both know how much fun it is to theorize until such time as we get more info. :D I'm thinking 1 or 2. If she was alive, he'd probably only want her back. I'm leaning toward her being dead and not in Winterfell's crypts (though all kinds of interesting things could be down there). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazfemur Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 You know youre one of the few I get along with, id never try to even annoy on purpose lol. I hope theres SOMEthing of importance and relevance down there. And not something so anticlimactic as let's say, a harp. An egg might be exciting. a shield with a laughing tree on it, amongst all the other possibilities would also be amazing. since the crypts are underground, theoretically, a wyrm would be ideal if youre into that dragon-theory a lot of people buy into (the source of winterfell's 'heat'.) ancestral ice (if it's currently not being wielded by TNK) speaking of the crypts, i find it interesting that the swords that supposedly keep the dead from springing from their tombs are supposedly iron, when it's the Andals' iron that was ultimately the undoing of the bronze-wielding First Men/Starks. hmm.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted February 13, 2015 Author Share Posted February 13, 2015 It's also interesting that the swords of all the older kings (probably most of them by now) rusted away years ago. I wonder if this means the ghosts are out and they're angry...or that the Kings of Winter could be wighted. Now those would be scary wights! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Cold Fingers Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 What if the love story between the 13th LC & the Corpse Queen (CQ) is also revisionist history? The CQ is actually the one and only Great Other...but she can only turn males into White Walkers. The CQ's name is Winter. She resides past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north (where Bran looked while he was still in his coma). She only leaves her 'throne' when she is the only one that remains. Basically, she needs a spokesman, which her last one was killed at the end of the Long Night. She found a willing soul in the 13th LC, who became the Night's King...and he is who we all think is the Great Other. Craster and Winter have an arrangement, which is why he is allowed to survive. He offers his sons to Winter and she allows him to continue living there, as long as he provides the sons. Anyways...I want to expand on this but I have to get back to work for a while. I'll comment more when I get time. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted June 7, 2015 Author Share Posted June 7, 2015 What if the love story between the 13th LC & the Corpse Queen (CQ) is also revisionist history? The CQ is actually the one and only Great Other...but she can only turn males into White Walkers. The CQ's name is Winter. She resides past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north (where Bran looked while he was still in his coma). She only leaves her 'throne' when she is the only one that remains. Basically, she needs a spokesman, which her last one was killed at the end of the Long Night. She found a willing soul in the 13th LC, who became the Night's King...and he is who we all think is the Great Other. Craster and Winter have an arrangement, which is why he is allowed to survive. He offers his sons to Winter and she allows him to continue living there, as long as he provides the sons. Anyways...I want to expand on this but I have to get back to work for a while. I'll comment more when I get time. :) Well I don't personally think that NK is TGO. I'm still not sure I believe there IS a TGO, at least not in the way that Mel thinks. The problem I have with this idea though is that it assumes that the Others have been decimated to the point where only she remains. But that's inconsistent with the plural form that's been used throughout the series. Why would she need to take multiple male children or even adults? She can only have one baby at a time, in theory. Why not just take one willing lover, and then when he dies, replace him? It doesn't fit with what we think we know. However, it would explain why it's taken them 8,000 years to come back--takes a long time for a lone female to go through enough pregnancies to produce a life-destroying army that can take out an entire continent. We also don't really have any indication from the books that the few Others we have seen are anything but pure Other. The CQ being the mother of half-human children would make at least some of her children and any subsequent offspring they have more like men. Then again, how do we know that the recent Others aren't more like men than their predecessors? *shrug* We need more info! Looking forward to more of your thoughts, Ser. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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