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Lady Blizzardborn

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  • the Mother of Games
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  1. Finally changed my avatar. :D

  2. 1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

    Useful is not all it's cracked up to be. I'd love the details. I'm a total history nerd. Feel free to send them in a PM if you like.

    If I were smart, I would have just started at Plantagenet England, realized that it fit pretty well, and have been done. But instead…

    The most famous cadet house traditions are the early modern HRE ones, I'm pretty sure GRRM didn't borrow from there, because the reason they're famous is all the the wacky results that still persist to modern times, like the British royal house being a cadet branch of a cadet branch of a Wettin duchy and the German imperial house being a cadet branch of the County of Hohenzollern. There doesn't seem to be anything like that in Westeros.

    So, next, medieval France, which is the original basis for most other European systems (since they had strict primogeniture before anyone else, so they needed it). The heraldic rules fit, and the few descriptions we get of cadet houses seem to work, but there's a huge problem: In France, if you can't acquire a new territory through marriage or conquest to give to your second son, you almost always split off a new fief within your main holdings for him. In Westeros, acquiring territory through marriage seems to be actively discouraged rather than encouraged. Conquest may be about as common as in France (like House Lannister of Darry) but that's not very common. And we don't see subdivision every generation—it's rare enough that it's presumably something you only do if you really like your second son or are really worried about him rebelling, rather than it being expected.

    Norman England directly brought over the French appanage traditions, but William immediately ran into the problem of his heir trying to overthrow him twice, so he ended up leaving everything to his second son, William II. Meanwhile, William II and Henry I were trying to flatten out the aristocracy and shrink all the old and new earldoms down, so nobody wanted to subdivide their domains either, because that would just make it easier for the kings to turn everyone into little more than barons. But when it did happen (often after acquiring new territory—e.g., Edward II conquered north Wales and part of Scotland, then his son gave York and Lancaster to his cadets), they followed the French rules. Which is basically the same thing we see in Westeros.

    And if you assume that GRRM borrowed this system for cadet houses, everything works, including the heraldry.

    What about bastard houses? They weren't very common in Plantagenet England, but they were common a few centuries later. And if you look at the Westerosi heraldic pattern—the father's arms quartered on a plain field with a baton sinister—that was invented by the King of Arms standardizations in the late 16th century. At that time, it was clear that bastards were not considered cadets—this was explicit with Charles II's bastards. Appanage was pretty much dead at that point, but if it had still existed, I don't think it would have applied to bastards. At that time, appanage was pretty much dead anyway, but also, Charles II's bastards were explicitly not called cadets.

    So, my guess is that Westeros's cadet house system is borrowed from Norman to Plantagenet England, but its bastard system is borrowed from Stuart England.

    As you can see, there's a lot of guessing here, but I think it all fits.

    1. Lady Blizzardborn

      Lady Blizzardborn

      Very cool! Thank you for sharing all of that with me.

  3. Still having issues with trying to post in some threads (several, but not all of the ones I tried today). I had cleared my cache, then couldn't get the site to come up for two days. Now I'm back at square one. Here's a screenshot of what I keep getting when I click in the little box to write a post... This also happens in some threads when I quote another post. I get that little bit of code, the quote, and that bit of code again, and can't do anything! It usually freezes the page so closing the tab is my only option. But on the up side, I can actually get those tabs to close without closing Chrome altogether. I also sometimes get this (screenshot) when I go to post. If I just delete it, everything is fine. If I click on "Clear editor" I get that "span data" thing, and am stuck. As of a few minutes ago I'm getting the "span data" thing when copying and pasting, but am able to delete it then. Windows 7, on my Acer laptop, Google Chrome.
  4. Would it be possible to get my Daario theory added in the true identities section?
  5. Ah, my Advanced Crackpottery threads have been archived. Seems like only yesterday I was posting them. Guess I better get cracking on the 4th one, which will be easier to do once the kids are in school again.

    1. Lord Wraith

      Lord Wraith

      Looking forward to it.


    2. Lady Blizzardborn

      Lady Blizzardborn

      Thanks, Lord Wraith!

  6. Not the same thing. You're talking about disobeying a direct order. Arya was never told not to kill Daeron. But Arya's killing of Daeron was an indication that she's still Arya Stark. So I'll agree that the punishment might not have been about killing a non-mark. After all, Pate was obviously not a mark and he got liquidated to facilitate a job. In general it seems like the FM are allowed a great deal of creative freedom. Doesn't seem like the Kindly Man or anyone else is micromanaging the fully-trained operatives. Then again, their discipline is already unquestioned. It's about more than that. Every member of the crew on the ship that took Arya to Braavos made sure she knew their names. They aren't loved ones, and she has no reason to be particularly loyal to them, yet she could refuse an assignment to kill anyone on that boat. If she's truly become "no one" crew members on ships should not bring up loyalty issues. I'd agree completely if it were just about loved ones, but clearly it isn't. What happens after loving, nobleborn father is dead? Is there any guarantee that her siblings or other relatives would care for her? Marriage prospects would be bleak, she wouldn't have a job because nobleborn women don't. It's not about hopes and dreams and who is thrilled with what. Her being given to them is not a tragedy. No it's not a cushy wonderland, but it's a life and it's a safe one. If her father had refused, she might have ended up dead as her step-mother continued to poison her, or an orphan if her father killed his wife himself. This is a Martin series. There wasn't going to be a happy ending to that situation. The Waif's story is the Waif's story. It doesn't tell us everything. It tells us what happened in that instance. And from what the Waif says in that chapter it sounds like her father offered her and his wealth freely. She doesn't say that the FM demanded that. It specifically says "...he came here and made sacrifice, offering up all his wealth and me. Him of Many-Faces heard his prayer. I was brought to the temple to serve, and my father's wife received the gift." The ALL of his wealth being a lie, because it was only two-thirds that he offered...but the rest was true. Chances are the step-mother was not someone the FM cared about one way or another, but if asked to kill someone important to the organization what do you think they're response would be? Valar morghulis? That might get in the way with the dohaerising of the valar in question. Jaqen tells Arya that three lives are owed because she saved him and those other two guys. They all three would have died if not for her intervention. So clearly that's another example of how big a deal death is to them. But there's no money in that. So in a way that offer of three lives taken is purer in a religious sense than turning a profit from killing people. Precisely. An end to suffering. Not everyone is suffering. And they couldn't possibly argue that death by poison or other forms of assassination is natural, even though death in general is. They're messing with nature by offing people, so there's something else going on. If their goal was really to kill everyone on Planetos, how come they haven't managed to accomplish that in the thousands of years they've been in existence? They're older than Braavos, going back to before the Doom. You'd think between dragons and poisons they could have knocked everybody out by now. And how come they charge so much? If death is natural and a gift, it should technically be free. The money angle muddies the waters. And the FM curiously don't seem to desire death for themselves. Most real-life death cults end up nowhere...because they kill themselves and no one is left to carry on the message. The first FM felt he was the instrument of the Many-Faced God, doing his work, but he didn't set out to give the gift to everyone...he didn't need to, because most people were going to die whether he did anything about it or not. He was selective. We know this because he wasn't caught and killed before passing his legacy on to others. The first FM didn't charge so far as we know. A pure, religious motive would be like Mel's--she burns people out in the open. She doesn't take multiple other people's identities to secretly kill. So far as we know. I mean we know there doesn't seem to be a consciousness, but we don't know that they can't feel pain. Without a wight POV our knowledge is somewhat limited. It's still a defiling of death. So I still think the FM would have a problem with it. Now with the R'hllorists actually bringing people back to an extent, the FM could make a killing...so to speak...with repeat business. But back to the Others, they kill the people and animals in what might be considered an unnatural way before turning them into Wights. So the Others could be seen as competition for the FM...especially since they don't charge. Recycling! So it is really all an allegory for environmental issues. Excellent point on the hidden contents. Here's a crazy thought that brings us back to Euron...what if the woman/shadow is the Mad Maid come out of the tower?
  7. I respectfully disagree. If they were just for death, any death, all-death-all-the-time, then Arya would not have been punished for offing Dareon, and they wouldn't have the rule about not having to kill someone you've met. They don't just go around killing everyone. The people who come to them for their own deaths are accepted, but they decide whether or not to take the paying jobs on a case-by-case basis, and they make people give up something it hurts to give up in payment so that their clients aren't taking "the gift" lightly. The waif had no life to speak of. Looking like a child for the rest of her life, in that world, would have guaranteed a lousy future for her. At the HOBAW she lived in relative security and comfort and even learned some useful things. It is not "clearly established" that they don't have any sort of goal other than killing people. It IS clearly established that there's a great deal we still don't know about them. But we do know they take death very seriously, and if as you say they just want to give the gift to everyone, why would they ally with a force that denies the sanctity of death by bringing the dead back as disposable infantry? Seems to me they'd be against that.
  8. You don't think Aeron knows his own brother well enough to spot an imposter? Unless Pree is a Faceless Man, I doubt he could pull that off with Aeron. Victarion sure, but Damphair wouldn't be fooled.
  9. So we're back to Patchface. The shadows come to dance. The shadows come to play. But really are you absolutely certain about this? Because the woman being the shadow doesn't really make sense with what we've seen of women and shadows in the series thus far. We've seen women who cast/bind/give birth to shadows, so we've seen women and shadows, but no hint of a woman being a shadow. Also, how does a shadow have fire, or hands of fire?
  10. Part 2 of 2, and apologies for the length of the posts. Shoutout to Ibbison of Ibben, for noting the lack of OGs in Euron's magical line-up. Note to chrisdaw...on the subject of Euron's brother and unborn child...it's said there is power in king's blood. The armor. If it actually IS Valyrian Steel, then yeah he probably got it from the warlocks. I mean if you're carrying around a dragonhorn you might want some fireproof armor too. But I'm curious about the runes. VS is already magic, and will be fire and blood magic per Valyrian standard magical practices. So what are the runes for? And are they Valyrian, or some other language? I see no reason why the minor dragonlord Targs would need VS armor. For one thing, they are "blood of the dragon" and seem to have a tendency to think they can't be killed by fire...they're wrong of course. I could see someone else--someone planning to challenge the dragonlords of Valyria--secretly buying up VS in small quantities and then having a master smith in Qohor make armor. That still doesn't explain the runes though. Oldtown and the reach: Isn't it interesting that the one archmaester who is not anti-magic, and is perhaps best suited to short-circuit whatever Euron might try in Oldtown has left? Maybe Marwyn will be the key to protecting Dany from Euron. Shame he's not there to help keep the citadel safe. If the maesters in general don't like magic, they will not like whatever Euron's up to--though if he phrases it in terms of ditching all the religions in favor of solid, evidence-based knowledge they might actually play right into his hand. I remember GRRM--I think in discussing what he can do that the show can't--mentioning that Willas Tyrell has an important role to play yet, and I believe Garlan too. With his leg injury removing him from the field of most things martial, Willas has had nothing to do but improve his mind. He may turn out to be a strategic genius, and as his mother was a Hightower, he will have serious interest in what goes on in Oldtown. A bit fuzzy on my family trees, but through the Hightowers it's possible that Mace's kids have a drop of dragonblood. Anyway, I'd like to see Willas and the Reader team up. As someone pointed out previously in the thread, the Harlaw sigil has not been mentioned as being seen amongst Euron's fleet. And I fully and shamelessly admit that I ship Willas and Asha. Edited to add: Sphinxes. Plural. Alleras/Sarella and...who? Or do we think these are literal, magical sphinxes?
  11. It's interesting that there are no dragons in Aeron's vision of Euron on the throne. Someone did post about the two times "pale fire" has been used in the text, one of which indicating Viserion. Since dragons are gender neutral/flexible, Viserion could be female, but more likely if the pale fire is Viserion then the woman is his rider and it isn't Dany. Still, I would think if there was a dragon in the vision, Aeron would have seen a dragon. They're kind of hard to miss. Val is a good option for our white fire lady. I joked years ago about her being NQ 2.0 and her chosen consort the new NK. Now that seems a bit less funny and more plausible. Ice burns in a way. Just the power of the Others or the original NQ would work too. If she's still around, she may want vengeance for her poor, slain husband. But I see Euron is more Maegor the Cruel reborn than NK reborn. NK was supposedly man by day, monster by night. Euron is monster 24/7. I also like the idea of Tyene being the woman. And the circumstantial evidence for Sheira is nice too. I dismiss Quaithe because she has no association with white and hasn't said anything to Dany so far that isn't true. But I have to say that Cersei takes the cake. This would open up so many options. For example...what if Maggy's fortune didn't refer to King Robert but to King Euron? Cersei had three children, not with Euron. Euron could easily have 16 bastards out there. What if the YMBQ who takes everything (left) that she holds dear*** is married to the valonqar? Think about it. Victarion has a history of strangling women who sleep with his brother, and Dany's Valyrian blood takes us back to Maggy not just saying "little brother" in the first place. ***her children are already dead, and Jaime's deserted her so what does she have left? As Euron's wife she retains the title and power of queen, but only as long as he lives. And there's Casterly Rock, which will be taken by Dany's forces, led by Tyrion--the foreshadowing of which is Tyrion's complaining about his first job which was running the CR sewers, and the taking of Meereen...say it with me...through the sewers. The FM are not with Euron. They believe that death is a gift, something sacred, or something you pay for. Euron believes in slaughtering for free and for fun. But...they may still be on the job for him. A dragon egg (which we seem to be assuming was the payment he made) should buy more than the death of one self-proclaimed king. I could be wrong about that, but it seems to me that he might have been able to bargain two deaths with that kind of payment. Does he really want Dany and/or her dragons? The dragons aren't just the best way to conquer, they're also the only things that can stop Euron from conquering. And if the dragonhorn works as he seems to think it does, once he has the dragons in thrall he wouldn't need Dany. Then he has the problem of anyone claiming the dragonhorn and stealing the dragons. How do you solve that problem? Maybe if you have a book all about dragons it will tell you how to kill them. And why would the FM go along with this multi-step, multi-hit job? Where did they start out? Valyria...in the mines. And who owned the mines? The rich elite of the freehold. And who were they? Dragonlords. Dany uses the dragons to free slaves, but anyone else might use them to enslave. OR...could be the FM want the book so they can keep Euron from using the dragons to enslave...given that slaving/thralling is an honored tradition in the Ironborn culture. Back to the point of the larger-than-necessary-fee, I've been thinking (partly thanks to the Mercy chapter) that Arya would be the perfect foil to an FM hit on Dany. She wants to see the dragons, and she will know how to spot "no one." This would also give her a pass on the standard execution Dany might normally have in store for the offspring of Ned Stark, Usurper's Dog. Part 1 of 2.
  12. I had an alternate take on that. I posited that the rat-faced dwarves were Frey men defiling Catelyn's body before throwing it in the river. House Frey would absolutely side with Euron (most of them anyway) and they would be pleased as punch to revel in King's Landing as men and women of consequence instead of underlings from the Riverlands. Just a thought.
  13. Nope, but I will give that a shot. I did manage to get that post written, but the box was still hovering. Clearly the box needs a hobby.
  14. Is anyone else having a problem with the quote box? I quoted the wrong post and can't get rid of the box now. Every time I try to so much as reply in the thread, that box shows up and won't go away. I can't type underneath the box either. Browser issue?
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