Littlefinger's Motive

[L'Sana]

This question has been bothering me for a long time. Assuming that Littlefinger wasn't bragging to Sansa about something that never happened, and that he did in fact conspire with the Tyrells to poison Joff, why? Their motive makes perfect sense, but what did Petyr get out of it.

I know that he implies to Sansa that he didn't have a motive and did it just to confuse his enemies, but I don't believe that. Why do something "to confuse people" if its something no one can ever suspect that you even had a hand in? I have come up with some ideas, but each is more crackpotish than the last, and none of them satisfy me. I was wondering if anyone here had some ideas.

[Serpit]

All just theories, but there are several.

For one, Joffrey dying means Tommen would become King, and Cersei would rule. Littlefinger knew the queen and knew she was a bad monarch. Thereby poisoning Joff weakened the enemy side, simple as that. He likes to have a little chaos to play with, apparently.

Second, and that one is more of a crackpot, it could be because of his affection for Sansa. He's pretty much into her and, as stupid as it sounds, could not stand Joff harassing his love interest. Joff tortured her and would have made her his whore, and Littlefinger wants Sansa and probably her virginity for himself.

[The Last Frey]

Mostly, I think it was for the chaos.

[Lord Qyburn]

I actually don't think that's crackpot at all, Serpit. I could easily see that happening. Still, the chaos had to be an added perk at least, or even the prime motive.

[Dracosmith]

This question has been bothering me for a long time. Assuming that Littlefinger wasn't bragging to Sansa about something that never happened, and that he did in fact conspire with the Tyrells to poison Joff, why? Their motive makes perfect sense, but what did Petyr get out of it.

I know that he implies to Sansa that he didn't have a motive and did it just to confuse his enemies, but I don't believe that. Why do something "to confuse people" if its something no one can ever suspect that you even had a hand in? I have come up with some ideas, but each is more crackpotish than the last, and none of them satisfy me. I was wondering if anyone here had some ideas.

It makes perfect sense. His motive was winning over High Garden. There is more to it than just what he tells Sansa. Think about it, at some point he and Tyrells plan together for Sansa to wear the hair thing, yet he doesn't tell her about that meeting.

At first I'm sure it went just how he said, he leaked Joff's true nature to the Tyrells through his men. At some point I believe the Tyrells confronted him about it, and they all agreed on the plan that he would get the poison into the wedding party. I imagine at that point the details probably weren't worked out. But the agreement would have been that the poison would be there.

That way, IF the Tyrells decided that Joff was unfit for their daughter to wed, they could make use of it. After the Queen of Thorn's conversation with Sansa, that sealed it.

An interesting note is that I do not believe that Lord Tyrell knew anything about it. It's the Queen of Thorns who is the true brains of that family. Consider this as well. We know that the Queen of Thorns poisoned the wedding chalice, you can be sure that Marjory knew in advance not to drink from it after a certain point. So I am convinced that the only ones who knew were the Queen of Thorns and Marjory Tyrell.

In AFFC there are clear signs that Marjory is quite cunning in her dealings with Cersei.

Chaos had nothing to do with it IMO. I believe that it was a condition of the Queen of Thorns. LF just wanted to brag to Sansa and claim responsibility for it.

[The Last Frey]

Good point: Littlefinger has much to gain by winning Tyrell's friendship. That gives him four out of seven kingdoms - a majority.

[Dracosmith]

Good point: Littlefinger has much to gain by winning Tyrell's friendship. That gives him four out of seven kingdoms - a majority.

There are two interesting subplots in all that for LF as well.

Through this plan, he is able to get revenge against Tyrion. Remember that he was very unhappy with Tyrion for falsely promising him HH. Also Tyrion had grown close to Varys, who was LF's arch rival. A small comment by Tyrion once was very telling to me: "More like I have replaced one of LF's men with one of Varys." If you think about it, from AGoT to the end of ASoS Varys and LF had been working against each other.

The Tyrells make a play to snatch up Sansa and remember that it is LF who exposes that plan to Cersei. Why? Because he wants her to stay in King's Landing until the wedding. Why? So he can have his hired man (Dontos) bring her to him.

And so Sansa ends up married and ends up being the one to supply the poison at the wedding. Which suits LF's purposes well because he wants Sansa for himself and what better way to accomplish that, then by implicating her in a regicide? At some point it will occur to Sansa that LF did her no favors, he helped himself and she was his pawn.

[Starkess]

I think it was in large part driven by his twisted desire for Sansa. He knew that Joff was cruel to Sansa, and he knew that Joff was likely not going to be satisfied with Margaery and would love nothing better than to make the Stark girl his mistress--not even that, more just like a whore. So LF arranges things in such a way that Joff is out of the picture and Petyr Baelish can step into the limelight in Sansa's life.

The growing chaos and connection with the Tyrells are merely side benefits.

[Ghlade]

For one, Joffrey dying means Tommen would become King, and Cersei would rule. Littlefinger knew the queen and knew she was a bad monarch. Thereby poisoning Joff weakened the enemy side, simple as that. He likes to have a little chaos to play with, apparently.

But does killing Joff mean Cersei would rule? Had it not been for Tyrion, Tywin would still be ruling King's Landing with a very capable iron fist, no?

Second, and that one is more of a crackpot, it could be because of his affection for Sansa. He's pretty much into her and, as stupid as it sounds, could not stand Joff harassing his love interest. Joff tortured her and would have made her his whore, and Littlefinger wants Sansa and probably her virginity for himself.

Actually, far from crackpot, this is one of the more plausible theories I've heard. It's certainly the theory with the most textual support.

[The Last Frey]

I don't know that Baelish did sansa "no favors". For all we know, she is better off in the Vale (where allies of Roose Bolton won't be able to target her) than at Highgarden.

Sure, he always benefits. Sure, he serves himself first and foremost. But I think he's also trying to help Sansa out.

[L'Sana]

For one, Joffrey dying means Tommen would become King, and Cersei would rule. Littlefinger knew the queen and knew she was a bad monarch. Thereby poisoning Joff weakened the enemy side, simple as that. He likes to have a little chaos to play with, apparently.

But this came about because of Tywin's death, not Joff's. Unless Littlefinger planned Tywin's murder also, then I think that the inevitable conflict between the nominal King Joffrey and his grandfather/Hand Lord Tywin would have created far more chaos than a passive little king Tommen with Tywin firmly in control.

Through this plan, he is able to get revenge against Tyrion. Remember that he was very unhappy with Tyrion for falsely promising him HH. Also Tyrion had grown close to Varys, who was LF's arch rival. A small comment by Tyrion once was very telling to me: "More like I have replaced one of LF's men with one of Varys." If you think about it, from AGoT to the end of ASoS Varys and LF had been working against each other.

This was one of my theories: Littlefinger didn't give a damn whether Joff lived or died, but he wanted Tyrion dead, and this gave him a good way to accomplish it without getting his own hands dirty. I can think of half a dozen reasons off the top of my head why LF would want Tyrion dead.

But I don't see how LF could have counted on Tyrion being accused and convicted. Tyrion was sitting at least six seats away from the king and hence the chalice. If Joff hadn't brought the chalice over, forced Tyrion to handle it, and then left it at Tyrion's seat, even Cersei's hysterics wouldn't have convinced anyone to arrest Tyrion.

And so Sansa ends up married and ends up being the one to supply the poison at the wedding. Which suits LF's purposes well because he wants Sansa for himself and what better way to accomplish that, then by implicating her in a regicide?

[\quote]

If all he wanted was to snatch Sansa, I think that would have been accomplished better with the original plan, have her run away during the chaos of the bedding. Yes, this way if he gets her, he'll get her when she's desperate and has no where else to turn. But that's IF he gets her. I think there was a better than even chance that Sansa might freeze until it's too late and be trapped in the hall.

[Dracosmith]

I don't know that Baelish did sansa "no favors". For all we know, she is better off in the Vale (where allies of Roose Bolton won't be able to target her) than at Highgarden.

Sure, he always benefits. Sure, he serves himself first and foremost. But I think he's also trying to help Sansa out.

In the years to come I'm not sure that Sansa will agree since she will wear the title of Kingslayer, thanks to LF and the Tyrells.

edit: LF not Joff lol

[Sarella]

But I don't see how LF could have counted on Tyrion being accused and convicted. Tyrion was sitting at least six seats away from the king and hence the chalice. If Joff hadn't brought the chalice over, forced Tyrion to handle it, and then left it at Tyrion's seat, even Cersei's hysterics wouldn't have convinced anyone to arrest Tyrion.

It was the dwarves. LF arranged for the jousting dwarves knowing that they would (1) infuriate Tyrion, (2) spur Joff to taunt Tyrion, (3) cause a public argument between Joff and Tyrion, and (4) bring the two near one another at the feast. It's the perfect set-up.

What I don't understand is if LF did it to win the Tyrell's, surely taking Sansa wasn't part of the plan. Olenna wanted to take her to Highgarden to marry Willas. When the Tyrells find out LF took Sansa, they may not be so happy with him anymore.

[Dracosmith]

This was one of my theories: Littlefinger didn't give a damn whether Joff lived or died, but he wanted Tyrion dead, and this gave him a good way to accomplish it without getting his own hands dirty. I can think of half a dozen reasons off the top of my head why LF would want Tyrion dead.

But I don't see how LF could have counted on Tyrion being accused and convicted. Tyrion was sitting at least six seats away from the king and hence the chalice. If Joff hadn't brought the chalice over, forced Tyrion to handle it, and then left it at Tyrion's seat, even Cersei's hysterics wouldn't have convinced anyone to arrest Tyrion.

But you are forgetting that LF outright TOLD Sansa that he planned for Tyrion to be accused.

He knew about all the times that Tyrion had threatened Joff. How? Because of the Kettleblacks who were his men through their father. Remember that LF was the one who arranged for that night's entertainment, jousting dwarves. He knew what the effect would be.

If all he wanted was to snatch Sansa, I think that would have been accomplished better with the original plan, have her run away during the chaos of the bedding. Yes, this way if he gets her, he'll get her when she's desperate and has no where else to turn. But that's IF he gets her. I think there was a better than even chance that Sansa might freeze until it's too late and be trapped in the hall.

I don't really think that was the original plan. Remember that is what Dontos TOLD Sansa the plan was. But he also told her to wear a the hair decoration with poison stones on it. Which of course meant that there was never going to be a bedding, right?

(regarding LF's motive being to win over High Garden) I could almost believe this, but I'm not sure how grateful the QoT is for Littlefinger's part in the plot. Seems more likely that she now wants him to die in a tragic accident than that she'll support his bid to become the next hand.

Well if he had felt a motive to kill Joff before he met with the Tyrells, he never acted on it...

I am not suggesting that he and the QoT are best buddies, either. In fact they were at cross purposes with Sansa Stark's fate (the QoT wanted her in High Garden, but LF foiled that). However they both profited from High Garden joining the Lannisters and in Joff dying.

What I don't understand is if LF did it to win the Tyrell's, surely taking Sansa wasn't part of the plan. Olenna wanted to take her to Highgarden to marry Willas. When the Tyrells find out LF took Sansa, they may not be so happy with him anymore.

I'm saying that this whole scenario began there. He wanted to be the Lord of HH, so he could marry Lysa. He wanted Sansa. He wanted revenge against Tyrion.

When he was sent to High Garden, the doors opened for him to achieve all those things.

The QoT consented to the marriage even after LF's men had put about that Joffrey was a monster. I have a hunch she had heard rumors about that before. Then, after the Tyrells arrive in King's Landing they invite Sansa to dinner. Why? Not for the pleasure of her company, but to ask her about Joff and confirm (or refute) what they have heard. Remember that look between Marg and the QoT when Sansa told them that Joff was a monster? Remember Sansa warning Marg several times not to wed Joff, and Marg being seemingly unconcerned?

I agree with you that I don't think getting Sansa was his #1 motivation. For Sansa's fate, LF and the Tyrell ladies were at odds. LF won though, because Sansa confided to Dontos who told LF who then went to the Queen and told her what the Tyrells were up to.

[The Last Frey]

What I don't understand is if LF did it to win the Tyrell's, surely taking Sansa wasn't part of the plan. Olenna wanted to take her to Highgarden to marry Willas. When the Tyrells find out LF took Sansa, they may not be so happy with him anymore.

You mean if they find out. Very few people ever know the extent to which Littlefinger is using them.

And I doubt Sansa will always be a "kingslayer". I'd bet Dragons to Gardencoin that the Lord Protector of the Vale has a plan to clear her name.

[Sarella]

You mean if they find out. Very few people ever know the extent to which Littlefinger is using them.

Well, he will have to dance indeed if he is to avoid it. If he intends to marry Sansa to Harry and claim The North.

But LF being LF, he could probably pull it off.

[The Last Frey]

What? Everyone will soon know that Baelish has Sansa, but who will suspect that he mananged to inform on the Tyrell plot, which only Sansa knew about (aside from Olenna and Margaery), while he was a hundred miles away?

[Garlen Tyrell]

i think you are all underestimating littlefingers greatest weakness. the stark women. all throughout the first three books, littlefinger is made out to be the ultimate thinker, planner, player of thrones, but in AFFC, we see the deeper side of littlefinger through sansa's chapters, and thats where you see that he does hav a weakness - and it is evident through the acts he has done, which explains the major motivation for killing joffery, so he could take her away with him

[L'Sana]

It was the dwarves. LF arranged for the jousting dwarves knowing that they would (1) infuriate Tyrion, (2) spur Joff to taunt Tyrion, (3) cause a public argument between Joff and Tyrion, and (4) bring the two near one another at the feast. It's the perfect set-up.

But a public argument wasn't enough; they needed to get Tyrion and the wine cup together. If Tyrion comes up with a grateful way out of Joff's trap, the plan fails entirely. If they argue, but Joff doesn't go over there, the plan fails entirely. If Joff tries to go over there, but Cersei or Tywin restrains him, the plan fails entirely. If Joff goes over to confront Tyrion, but dumps his soup bowl instead of his wine cup over Tyrion's head, the plan fails entirely...

My point being that if all Littlefinger got out of it was framing Tyrion, he was either psychic or stupid.

I don't really think that was the original plan. Remember that is what Dontos TOLD Sansa the plan was. But he also told her to wear a the hair decoration with poison stones on it. Which of course meant that there was never going to be a bedding, right?

True. What I meant by the "original" plan was what Sansa thought the plan was. It seems to me that was a much less risky and more reliable plan of getting her away.

Well if he had felt a motive to kill Joff before he met with the Tyrells, he never acted on it...

I am not suggesting that he and the QoT are best buddies, either. In fact they were at cross purposes with Sansa Stark's fate (the QoT wanted her in High Garden, but LF foiled that). However they both profited from High Garden joining the Lannisters and in Joff dying.

The Tyrells profited, certainly. I'm still trying to figure out how Littlefinger profitted. Have no doubt he did, but still don't see how.

Here is my crackpot theory. It's not one I'm satisfied with, but it's the best I can come up with:

Somewhere, Littlefinger has proof that the Queen of Thorns was the poisoner and that Margaery knew about the scheme. This proof is something so definite that the realm would be forced to take notice of it, even though he is a very low born lord accusing the highest of the high. If this proof was ever revealed, the Tyrells would be finished. At a minimum, Margaery and the Queen of Thorns would be executed and all influence the Tyrells had gained would be lost. At worst, their own bannermen might turn against them, and their house would be completely destroyed. Therefore, when the QofT followed Littlefinger's scheme, she fell into his trap, and theTyrells are his for as long as the Lannisters rule.

Problem: I have no idea what such proof would look like. I can't even imagine what it might be.

[Sarella]

What? Everyone will soon know that Baelish has Sansa, but who will suspect that he mananged to inform on the Tyrell plot, which only Sansa knew about (aside from Olenna and Margaery), while he was a hundred miles away?

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I wasn't talking about LF snitching to Cersei that Olenna meant to steal Sansa. I was talking about LF snatching Sansa and taking her to the vale. The QOT wanted Sansa, but LF took her. Right now nobody knows where Sansa is. But when Sansa claims The North, Olenna will realize that LF took her, and stuffed up Olenna's plans to marry Sansa to Willas and likely claim the north in the Tyrell name. This will put a strain on the LF/Tyrell friendship.