The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)

[Jon Targaryen]

What is the song of ice and fire? It the harmony created by the union of those most powerful of elements. A harmony in the shape of an infant boy created by the love of Lyanna and Rhaegar on whose shoulders lay all the hopes of Westeros.

I agree with Other-in-Law but I believe for different reasons. As you say, the song of ice and fire is mentioned in connection with the prince that was promised ie Azor Ahai Reborn. Therefore, to look to some meaning of "song of ice and fire" we must look to AAR/tptwp. That appears, imo, to be Dany. So I like Sarella's (the boarder) interpretation that soiaf refers to the war for the dawn, the battle between the forces of ice and the forces of fire, with good and evil on both sides.

However, I do concede that Jon fits asoiaf to a T. As you say, the Starks represent Ice and the Targaryens fire. But, imo, Jon is not the ptwp/AAR. He fulfills none of the requirements except for being a symbol of ice and fire. So I look forward to the explanation of what the song truly does mean.

[sholtzma]

Scholtzma said: There is NO evidence that Elia saw what was coming in the public display that Rhaegar made of the queen of love and beauty business or that she approved/disapproved. Even if he wanted Lyanna, needed a third head, or fulfilled a prophesy, he could have done it in secret. He could have done it without Robert around. He could have done it in good taste, and done it privately.

Me: Ned remembers the moment that Rhaegar gave Lyanna the Crown of Love and Beauty as "The moment when all smiles died." (Amerian paperback GoT, p. 630-1). Not "the moment all smiles except Elia's died." And I'm really not sure what to do with your suggestion that Elia would say she was as interested in Lyanna as Rhaegar was.

Scholtzma said: FWIW, I believe that there is a possibility that Elia knew IF it was written down in prophesy, because if Rhaegar is as great as everyone says he is, then he would at least want to explain why he needs to do something like this in front of Lyanna's betrothed, family, and all who were present at the tourney. I can just picture Elia saying "well yes, Rhaegar, I'm just fine with that...but what of Robert? What of tearing the realm to pieces? Surely this will mean war. Sure, I'm as interested in Lyanna as you are, but please just bring her into our tent and propose to her, and save yourself some grief." Sheesh.

Me: If the end result of a private proposal from Rhaegar to Lyanna was that she abandoned her engagement and ran away with Rhaegar, I don't think that situation would have worked out any better than the one that actually occurred did.

Dorne is liberal sexually, but they get enraged when they feel that their rights are being ignored. Witness the reaction in Feast for Crows to the death of Oberyn, Elia's brother (not to mention their longstanding anger over the murders of Elia and her children--something her brother Doran refers to in the early chapters of FFC). Targaryen polygamy is generations in the past at this point, and Rhaegar's taking another wife wasn't evidence of being a swinger; it was devaluing and replacing a Dornish princess.

Telobsidian: If R+L=J and Jon was born shortly before Ned found Lyanna at the Tower of Joy in a room smelling of blood and roses, Rhaegar died at the Trident several months before that. I doubt that he would have named as his heir a child that was months from birth, especially since he already had a son whose legitimacy was unquestioned. Setting aside a child of Elia's for one of Lyanna's would, I think, guarantee a Dornish uprising. Since Rhaegar does not seem to have left any evidence of having married Lyanna, if he did marry her, Jon would be considered a bastard and therefore not eligible to inherit unless a king legitimized him, and it's hard to imagine Aerys doing that even if he had survived. Rhaegar doesn't seem to have taken the possibility of his own death seriously--which could be a point in favor of Scholtzma's suggestion above that Rhaegar thought he'd found a prophecy that referred to him when in fact it was for someone else.

Automne, we don't know when Rhaegar and Elia got to the Tower of Joy, but clearly Rhaegar didn't stay there all the time. He went to King's Landing and then to the Trident, where he was killed by Robert's warhammer, several months before the end of the war.

Nateman 29 said, "Most of us seem to accept as fact that, while Rhaegar intitially believed that he was the Prince who was Promised, he came to believe instead that he was to be the father of the Prince." That's the first time I've seen that theory advanced. What points to it in the books? I do agree that Elia's bad health might have been a factor in Rhaegar's choosing another woman.

Sorry Shewoman. I was being extremely sarcastic about Elia's potential interest in Lyanna. And I was being sarcastic about a Dornish woman being sexually interested in another woman, which is doubly confusing for all reading. My apologies. I do agree that all the smiles died, but that we don't know whether she knew what was going to happen or not. We don't have any evidence yet what she knew about Rhaegar's potential interest in Lyanna. But would anybody in their right mind insult Robert Baratheon in front of perhaps hundreds of people? That is the thing that just blows my mind about the whole thing. That's why I just have this weird feeling that it was something that Rhaegar single-mindedly did due to some very convincing knowledge.

As for what Nateman 29 said, I think Aemon was talking about it on his deathbed to Samwell - that Rhaegar and others thought he was the ptwp, but later was convinced that his son was, and Aemon described the various signs (comets, sweat/salt/tears, smoke: basic Azor Ahai recipe) that they thought fit either Rhaegar or his son Aegon's conception date.

[BrainFireBob]

Dany would also be half-Targaryen, however she would be the half expressing the recessive traits. All of Daeron's children were half-Targaryen, they married each other, making their own children half-Targaryen but retaining those characteristic Targaryens recessives, and their children married, and their children married, and produced Dany. That's still half-Targ (same halves on both sides) breeding with half-Targ all the way down- but genetics don't work in Martin-world quite right.

[Shewoman]

Scholtzma, sorry for the confusion on my part.

I was just re-reading AFFC; I'll have to go back and check that part.

BrainFireBob, nonetheless Dany has the traditional Targaryen coloring and, apparently, the Targaryen ability to control dragons.

[automne]

Automne, we don't know when Rhaegar and Elia got to the Tower of Joy, but clearly Rhaegar didn't stay there all the time. He went to King's Landing and then to the Trident, where he was killed by Robert's warhammer, several months before the end of the war.

Thank you for the information.

I still find it difficult to believe that the 3 best KG stayed at the TOJ several months after Rhaegar's death to protect his lover/second wife. Lyanna's baby --legitimate or not-- was not Rhaegar's heir.

[Shewoman]

Automne, once Aegon and Rhaenys were killed during the Sack of Kings Landing, if Lyanna's child was legitimate and survived it was Rhaegar's heir. Rhaegar, as Aerys' oldest son, was his father's heir. Since Rhaegar died, his oldest son, Aegon, would have inherited the throne. Since he and Rhaenys were dead, Rhaegar's oldest living legitimate male heir became the Targaryen heir. If Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, their child should have inherited the Iron Throne.

[automne]

once Aegon and Rhaenys were killed during the Sack of Kings Landing, if Lyanna's child was legitimate and survived it was Rhaegar's heir.

If I understand you correctly the 3 KG knew about the deaths of Aegon and Rhaenys and stayed with Lyanna and her unborn child because it was their duty to protect Rhaegar's heir.

While I agree that with the information the readers are given R+L=J is the best theory I still think there's something missing.

Thanks again for replying to a naive boarder.

[Black Wizard]

Eddard, the Crannogman chief and a few others went in pursuit of the three Kingsguard did they not. Possibly trying to rescue Jon?

[Shewoman]

Automne, Ned has a dream about the fight with the three KG in front of the Tower of Joy. It's on pages 424-5 of my American paperback of Game of Thrones. He and the three KG talk before they fight, and it's clear that the KG are aware of what has happened during the sack of KG.

That being said, Martin has said this is a fever dream and is not necessarily utterly accurate about everything that happened. I think this may mean that there some conversation or events that occurred are not in Ned's dream--or even that Lyanna's location was not what the KG were guarding.

I think you're quite right that, even if R+L=J, there will be some surprises in how it works out.

Black Wizard, I believe Ned and seven of his friends (including Howland Reed) went looking for Lyanna. I don't know how they knew to go to the Tower of Joy. But I don't think they were expecting a baby; if Lyanna had gotten word out about that, I think she would have been found sooner--and I think they would have brought a wetnurse with them, which as far as we know they did not.

[telobsidion]

Thank you for the information.

I still find it difficult to believe that the 3 best KG stayed at the TOJ several months after Rhaegar's death to protect his lover/second wife. Lyanna's baby --legitimate or not-- was not Rhaegar's heir.

As I suggested (and my post was misunderstood), Rhaegar may have named "Jon" his heir over Aegon. No doubt it would have caused a controversy (a little less controversy if R+L were wed) should people decide to gather around Aegon, but there is precedent in other houses. Aegon was Elia's child, and perhaps was sickly as she was, or perhaps Rhaegar feared he may become sickly. Not only that, the marriage between Rhaegar and Elia was likely a marriage of state, not of love. It seems probable that there was passion (and maybe love) between Rhaegar and Lyanna. Not only that, but Lyanna was strong-willed, courageous (if she was the Knight of the Laughing Tree), and fiery with her wolf's blood. If there was something in the prophecy that made Rhaegar consider that perhaps it was Lyanna's son that would be fulfill it, not Elia's, then that's all the more reason to do it.

It's a lot of speculation, and unfortunately that's all it can be at the moment, but it's certainly possible and would explain why three of the Kingsguard would feel the need of guarding Lyanna and Jon personally.

Of course, they may have headed directly to the Tower of Joy after the sack of King's Landing, too. Haha.

[automne]

Mr Martin has withheld too much information for us to come to a final conclusion about Jon's parentage.

Though IMO one thing is sure: Jon isn't Ned's biological son, he is Lyanna's and his father is either Rhaegar or someone from his entourage. What makes me think so? Of course I won't say anything new here. Other boarders have summed up the arguments in favour of R+L=J in a very convincing way. I only want to say which arguments convinced me.

1. We know from Ned's POV how he felt about the promises he made to his sister and what it cost him to keep them.

2. Jon's parentage is a dangerous secret. Jon's mere existence is a danger to the Starks.

3. Ned refuses to name Jon's mother. His naming Willa to Robert is nothing but a cover up. Otherwise why didn't he do the same when Cat asked? He wouldn't willingly lie to his wife but he had to give a name to Robert to prevent him from suspecting something is amiss.

[Shewoman]

telobsidian, I don't think Rhaegar would have tried to name a younger child as his heir when he already had Aegon. While we do hear a good bit about Elia's ill health, we've never heard that about Aegon. To set aside Elia's child would be to utterly alienate Dorne, and if both Aegon and Lyanna's child (if there wa one) survived, Aegon's partisans would be a constant threat to Lyanna's child since, according to the laws of inheritance, a living Aegon was his father's rightful heir. "I love Lyanna more" would not be accepted as a reason for passing over the heir.

[telobsidion]

telobsidian, I don't think Rhaegar would have tried to name a younger child as his heir when he already had Aegon. While we do hear a good bit about Elia's ill health, we've never heard that about Aegon. To set aside Elia's child would be to utterly alienate Dorne, and if both Aegon and Lyanna's child (if there wa one) survived, Aegon's partisans would be a constant threat to Lyanna's child since, according to the laws of inheritance, a living Aegon was his father's rightful heir. "I love Lyanna more" would not be accepted as a reason for passing over the heir.

It's a commonly held theory Rhaegar planned to essentially remove Aerys from power. That's a pretty big upset in and of itself. As for "laws", it's all about whether or not it could really be enforced. And perhaps Rhaegar viewed Jon as the fulfilling of the prophecy once he found Lyanna and not Aegon. All speculation, but... eh. I don't know. We'll see.

[Shewoman]

If Rhaegar did plan to remove his father from power--and if that's based on the comment he made to Jaime Lannister, I tend to doubt that he'd feel the need to clue Jaime in on his plans--but if he did, Aerys' pyromaniac behavior towards several of his recent Hands would provide some evidence that he was unfit to rule. There wouldn't be anything of the sort connected to Aegon. Ditching one of Elia's kids for one of Lyanna's would, I think, lead to a war with Dorne, and the country was already at war, no matter what prophecy Rhaegar was thinking of or who he thought might fulfill it.

[Black Wizard]

What comment did Rhaegar make to Jaime?

[Shewoman]

Just before he left for the Trident, he said something to Jaime about making some changes when he got back. That's not an exact quote, but it's the gist of what he said. I think it's in a Jaime PoV in AFFC.

[SkyPirate]

Just before he left for the Trident, he said something to Jaime about making some changes when he got back. That's not an exact quote, but it's the gist of what he said. I think it's in a Jaime PoV in AFFC.

Tada! It's in AFFC in Jaime I.

I know you, Kingslayer, the beast seemed to be saying. I have been here all the time, waiting for you to come to me. And it seemed to Jaime that he knew that voice, the iron tones that had once belonged to Rhaegar, Prince of Dragonstone.

The day had been windy when he said farewell to Rhaegar, in the yard of the Red Keep. The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three-headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate. “Your Grace,†Jaime had pleaded, “let Darry stay to guard the king this once, or Ser Barristan. Their cloaks are as white as mine.â€

Prince Rhaegar shook his head. “My royal sire fears your father more than he does our cousin Robert. He wants you close, so Lord Tywin cannot harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour.â€

Jaime’s anger had risen up in his throat. “I am not a crutch. I am a knight of the Kingsguard.â€

“Then guard the king,†Ser Jon Darry snapped at him. “When you donned that cloak, you promised to obey.â€

Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime’s shoulder. “When this battle’s done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but . . . well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return.â€

Those were the last words Rhaegar Targaryen ever spoke to him. Outside the gates an army had assembled, whilst another descended on the Trident. So the Prince of Dragonstone mounted up and donned his tall black helm, and rode forth to his doom.

Off-topic, but I like the fact that his voice is described as 'iron tones'. Doesn't fit the whole sparkly emo-prince thing at all.

[Shewoman]

Thanks, Sky Pirate!

[sToNED_CAT]

But, imo, Jon is not the ptwp/AAR. He fulfills none of the requirements except for being a symbol of ice and fire. So I look forward to the explanation of what the song truly does mean.

Well, I'm not reading this forum often so this was probably discussed, but what about the prophecy - "being born amidst salt and smoke, beneath a bleeding star?".

Smoke can be ToJ burning, salt can be tears and bleeding star may be bleeding and dying Arthur Dayne.

Why does everyone think bleeding star must be a comet? The sigil of house Dayne includes a falling star. Many persons in Westeros are often nicknamed in connection with their sigils (Blackfish, Young Wolf, lions, Rose) so why not call Dayne a star? There is at least one such Dayne - Darkstar.

[Guest Other-in-law]

Smoke can be ToJ burning, salt can be tears and bleeding star may be bleeding and dying Arthur Dayne.

We have no indication that the Tower of Joy was ever burnt. Ned had it pulled down to make the cairns for the fallen, not put to the torch.