The Wise Man's Fear V [Spoilers and speculation within]

[Spaceman Hobbes]

There is a non-zero chance (in my mind) that Denna is a virgin... and if not a virgin at least relatively chaste. She does keep a knife strapped to her leg, which would allow her to defend her honor.

Go reread the conversation in Severean, she may be relatively chaste, but she is speaking from experience. Judging by what Denna says, I think she WAS a whore. Denna basically says that sooner or later you have to give it up or leave. What Denna does now seems to be something more along the lines of receiving gifts with the expectation of certain favors in return.

[Sylvester]

Something I just noticed on my reread of WMF, and it may have been said before. I hope I'm not mistaken, 'cause I currently don't have my copy of tNotW to check...

In Ademre, Shehyn calls the Chandrian the "Rhinta", saying that is a better name for them.

First of all, I noticed a phonetical resemblance with the flowers on the Chtaeh tree, the Rhinna, but I could'nt make heads or tails of it, so I dismissed it as hardly conclusive and without any real sense.

But then, I remembered something more interesting: the skin dancer in tNotW, I'm pretty sure that while speaking the Mael language (which is different from the Fae language btw since Bast doesn't understand it), the dancer says "Rhinta" in a sentence... Anyone checks?

If that is right, could he mean that he is "looking" for one of the Chandrian? So why would he come to Kvothe if that is the case...And anyway, we don't even know anything about the Mael...They seem to be from a particular area in Fae, and Bast hates them. Could perhaps the skrael also be from the Mael?

Any thoughts?

And on the Denna business: do you think that her relationship with her patron also extends to selling herself for knowledge/patronship? So that could also be why she is so reticent to speak about him to Kvothe, apart from his desire of secrecy, no?

[two_by_two]

I just discovered this forum about three days ago and have spent literally every waking minute of those three days reading the posts on it, excluding a few hours for eating and going to class. I am inspired, astonished, and amazed by everyone’s insightful comments and the sheer amount of research that has gone into this. I don’t normally read books this closely, but I now realize that NotW and WMF merit it. At this time I have a few additions and speculations of my own to add. Unfortunately, I don’t have exact page numbers or quotes, because I’m currently lending my books to someone else. (Disclaimer: I apologize for the vast post to follow. It was longer, but I cut it down. There will be more.)

Near the beginning of NotW, Kvothe is making fun of Bast. He says “Aroi, te denna-leyan!” to which Bast replies “Come now. That’s just insulting.” Kvothe’s quote (which is filed in the Google doc under Temic) as far as I can tell translates to “Begone, you dennerling!” Aroi has similar etymological roots to the word aroint, which is no longer commonly used (I am writing this is Word and the spellchecker does not recognize it) but means “to dispel, to drive away” (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/aroint). Denna-leyan obviously shares a root and probably its meaning with dennerling, which we speculate to be a lesser Faeling. This would explain Bast’s indignation. I have gone ahead and added this to the Google doc; please let me know if anyone disagrees with my translation. Interestingly, aroint is apparently also related to the word rynt (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rynt), which might correspond to some of the other words in other languages, such as perhaps Rhinna and the derivatives of that. I haven’t looked closely at that yet.

I have nothing new to add to the Cinder = Ash / Bredon = Ash question. It has been fairly definitively decided that Cinder ≠ Bredon (given Kvothe’s ability to recognize Cinder from across a field). I would, however, like to posit that there could be a different Chandrian in disguise at the Maer’s court. I have noticed across the forum that many people speculate that Dagon is a member of the Amyr. This seems probable, but is it possible that Dagon is instead a Chandrian? When Kvothe’s troupe is killed and he sees the Chandrian for the first time, he sees a bald man with a beard. Dagon is also bald, though I cannot find if he has a beard or not. We also have to consider Kvothe’s inexplicable revulsion towards Dagon, which fits more with him as a Chandrian than him as an Amyr, who are always portrayed as being, if not “good”, not “evil” either. Just a thought. More on the apocryphal side, Dagon is the name of a Semitic god of fertility and fish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagon) and is often depicted in popular culture and literature as an evil Old One-style god, ala H.P. Lovecraft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagon_in_popular_culture). Even more randomly, dagon is “a genus of South American butterflies” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagon_(butterfly)), which is interesting in relation to the appearance of butterflies in the Fae. This information, although interesting, does not really fall for or against my theory.

Speaking of butterflies, Alaxel, the true name of Haliax, is related to another species of butterflies. According to Wikipedia, “Arhopala alax … is a small butterfly found in India that belongs to the Lycaenids or Blues family” [emphasis mine] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arhopala_alax). Additionally, and doubtlessly coincidentally, alax and various bastardizations of the word mean two in several Aleut languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_numbers_in_various_languages#Eskimo-Aleut_languages). It’s interesting, but probably not relevant.

Regarding Auri, another common topic. I have done a small amount of research (15 minutes with Google) and realized that her name could be related to the word aura, which means “the distinctive atmosphere or quality considered to be characteristic of a person or thing”. This evokes the images of Auri’s hair floating and wafting around her head which Pat always includes. Additionally, in Greek mythology, Aura is “a companion of Artemis who bore twins to Dionysus. Zeus changed her into a spring because, in a fit of madness, she had killed one of her children”. This is also vaguely reminiscent of Auri, who we assume to be a slightly cracked Arcanum student. On the other hand, in medical terminology, an aura is “a subjective sensation (as of voices or colored lights or crawling and numbness) experienced before an attack of some nervous disorders (as epilepsy or migraine)”. Make of that what you will. I got all information from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/aura.

Speaking of names, I was researching possible etymology of some of the words in NotW and WMF and stumbled across something very interesting. The selas flower is related etymologically to the word Selene, or the moon (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=selas&searchmode=none). In fact, the root selas itself means “light, brightness of heavenly bodies”. This seems far too clear of a reference to be anything but deliberate on Pat’s part. I don’t know what the possible ramifications of this could be, but somewhere much further up in the forum (I apologize for not providing a direct citation, but I didn’t realize this connection until just now and failed to mark the place in the thousands of posts) someone pointed out the suggested similarities between Denna and the moon. I believe there was some quote that went approximately like “Her face caught a piece of my smile and reflected it back at me.” And, of course, we must note that Kvothe picks a selas flower for Denna. Perhaps this theory holds more water than I originally gave it credit for. I think this might deserve much more consideration.

More on Denna: The word dene means “valley” (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=dene). This is probably insignificant. More interestingly, the name Dinah is used in the Bible. Dinah is a daughter of Jacob and Leah. She is kidnapped and raped by Shechem, a Canaanite prince, and her brothers, Simeon and Levi, avenge her rape (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinah). This is probably also insignificant. I looked through the lists of posited names for the daughters of Danaid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danaid#The_Danaids_and_their_husbands_.28Apollodorus.29), but couldn’t find any that immediately struck me as being Chandrian-like (earlier in the forum, it was suggested that perhaps Denna could be a Chandrian, specifically Alenta). I’ve probably gone on a wild-goose chase here, but I thought it was worth a shot. Strangely, Denna’s name seems to be related to yet another genus of butterfly, genus Danaus. Does anyone know if Pat is an entomologist? This seems like rather a lot of butterfly references to be merely coincidence.

I omitted a large list of other random names that crop up in Latinate scientific names for brevity’s sake. I may post them later.

Again, I am amazed and thoroughly impressed by the amount of work, research, and close reading all of you have put into these books. Thank you for enriching my reading experience.

-- two_by_two

[two_by_two]

In Ademre, Shehyn calls the Chandrian the "Rhinta", saying that is a better name for them.

First of all, I noticed a phonetical resemblance with the flowers on the Chtaeh tree, the Rhinna, but I could'nt make heads or tails of it, so I dismissed it as hardly conclusive and without any real sense.

But then, I remembered something more interesting: the skin dancer in tNotW, I'm pretty sure that while speaking the Mael language (which is different from the Fae language btw since Bast doesn't understand it), the dancer says "Rhinta" in a sentence... Anyone checks?

If that is right, could he mean that he is "looking" for one of the Chandrian? So why would he come to Kvothe if that is the case...And anyway, we don't even know anything about the Mael...They seem to be from a particular area in Fae, and Bast hates them. Could perhaps the skrael also be from the Mael?

This has been discussed in an earlier thread.

thistlepong posted this earlier; I don't know how to link to an earlier, closed thread.

^that's the direct link to the post

grinachu, on 14 March 2011 - 12:30 PM, said:

I have one more discovery/perspective to share with y'all. NOTW, page 633

"The mercenary's eyes sharpened again, focusing on Kvothe. The wide, humorless

smile reappeared, made macabre by the blood running down his

face. "Te aithiyn Seathaloi?" he demanded. "Te Rhintae?"

I find it very curious that the mercenary is using a word that seems to be similar to the Ademic word "Rhinta" which means "old things in the shape of men" or Chandrian. Why would the mercenary be questioning Kvothe about the Chandrian?

He's speaking Fae in that scene; Bast calls it an old dialect. Amouen appears in Felurian’s song and she uses it a couple times. My guess is that he’s associated with the Sithe, with no other support than he says Seathaloi twice and fails to meet their expectations for a skin dancer.

Vorfelan Rhinata Morie is chiseled deep into the stone above the massive doors to the Archives. (NotW ch36)

After Lorren consents to Elodin's request that Kvothe be allowed access to the Archives, Kvothe asks Wil what the words mean: "The desire for knowledge shapes a man," he said. "Or something like that."(WMF ch13)

Bast says, "[The Rhinna] are a panacea, Reshi. They can heal any illness. Cure any poison. Mend any wound."

Shehyn's descriptions for Rhinta:

"A bad thing. A man who is more than a man, yet less than a man."

"Old things in the shape of men. And a handful worse than all the rest. They walk the world freely and do terrible things."

So Rhinta, Rhintae(plural? associative/of the Rhinta?), Rhinna(flower), Rhinata. Save rhinna all are probably related to man or shape/man.

Given the latin/spanish implications of te, the puppet was probably asking Kvothe if he was Chandrian.

[thistlepong]

Thanks two_by_two. I thought alekhia was the one who brought up the connection, though.

If that is right, could he mean that he is "looking" for one of the Chandrian? So why would he come to Kvothe if that is the case...And anyway, we don't even know anything about the Mael...They seem to be from a particular area in Fae, and Bast hates them. Could perhaps the skrael also be from the Mael?

Any thoughts?

And on the Denna business: do you think that her relationship with her patron also extends to selling herself for knowledge/patronship? So that could also be why she is so reticent to speak about him to Kvothe, apart from his desire of secrecy, no?

Isn't Bast Prince of the Telwyth Mael? How many Mael(s) are there?

Skafra posted, a couple pages before the post two linked, "I'm guessing the Shapers created the Scrael and the Mael and all the scary things as weapons to beat the Namers with", so you're not alone.

For whatever reason, I don't think Denna's sleeping with her patron. No matter who's right, Bredon is a bit on the old side and according to legend touching Cinder would be a chilly affair.

For your snarling incredulity, I present another option. Aculeus Lackless is Denna's father as well as her patron, whom we'll call Bredon Ash. The descriptions of Meluan and Denna line up with disturbing accuracy while Laurian looks nothing like Lady Alveron. He has the resources to send her all over the world fitting a song together, farther than Arliden ever traveled; and the resources to keep Kvothe in the dark about his identity. He can offer the one thing no one else can: acknowledgment. He made it very clear that things would go badly for me if I ever made our relationship public. (WMF 8744) He doesn't think any of my suitors are good enough for me. (WMF 9879) Their family has an ancient secret box made from rhinna wood which, among other things, provides a connection to Faen and to Lanre. All that, and it gets rid of the pesky secret noble orphan trope. What about the song, you ask? Not Tally, you say? Laurian made Arliden sleep under the wagon for singing a dirty song about marrying a girl hardly older than their son.

[TheValyrianDragonlord]

Wait Denna is Netalia Lackless? Isn't she supposed to be older than meluan who's in her mid to late twenties? Intriguing theory but i don't think it works.

I am quite curious about Aculeus though. Meluan is just the heir right now right? She's not the head of the family yet. But she controls the lackless box not aculeus.

[thistlepong]

Wait Denna is Netalia Lackless? Isn't she supposed to be older than meluan who's in her mid to late twenties? Intriguing theory but i don't think it works.

I am quite curious about Aculeus though. Meluan is just the heir right now right? She's not the head of the family yet. But she controls the lackless box not aculeus.

Nobody has properly addressed Meluan's age. The rumors of "young Netalia Lackless" would be eighteen years old at that point if it were Laurian.

Meluan's the heir, yah, but she also jumped up to like 5th in line for the throne of all Vintas when she married Alveron. Prolly gives her some weight. I didn't get the idea that ten people in history had seen the box, just ten living folk.

[Gaston de Foix]

Thanks two_by_two. I thought alekhia was the one who brought up the connection, though.

Isn't Bast Prince of the Telwyth Mael? How many Mael(s) are there?

Skafra posted, a couple pages before the post two linked, "I'm guessing the Shapers created the Scrael and the Mael and all the scary things as weapons to beat the Namers with", so you're not alone.

For whatever reason, I don't think Denna's sleeping with her patron. No matter who's right, Bredon is a bit on the old side and according to legend touching Cinder would be a chilly affair.

For your snarling incredulity, I present another option. Aculeus Lackless is Denna's father as well as her patron, whom we'll call Bredon Ash. The descriptions of Meluan and Denna line up with disturbing accuracy while Laurian looks nothing like Lady Alveron. He has the resources to send her all over the world fitting a song together, farther than Arliden ever traveled; and the resources to keep Kvothe in the dark about his identity. He can offer the one thing no one else can: acknowledgment. He made it very clear that things would go badly for me if I ever made our relationship public. (WMF 8744) He doesn't think any of my suitors are good enough for me. (WMF 9879) Their family has an ancient secret box made from rhinna wood which, among other things, provides a connection to Faen and to Lanre. All that, and it gets rid of the pesky secret noble orphan trope. What about the song, you ask? Not Tally, you say? Laurian made Arliden sleep under the wagon for singing a dirty song about marrying a girl hardly older than their son.

Alekhia connected the prefix "Rhin" with the words above the Library "Vorfelan..", the Ademic word and the flower,rhinna. I noticed the mercenary in NOTW using it as well. As far as I'm concerned all four of them are valid connections.

so I had a really random thought. Kvothe needs the Rhinna flowers to heal his hand. The Sithe guard the tree but are afraid to approach anyone who has had direct contact with the Ctaeth and so shoot arrows. Kvothe has invented a really ingenious device to stop arrows from hurting him. What stops him taking his arrow trap and taking a flower from the tree?

[thistlepong]

Alekhia connected the prefix "Rhin" with the words above the Library "Vorfelan..", the Ademic word and the flower,rhinna. I noticed the mercenary in NOTW using it as well. As far as I'm concerned all four of them are valid connections.

so I had a really random thought. Kvothe needs the Rhinna flowers to heal his hand. The Sithe guard the tree but are afraid to approach anyone who has had direct contact with the Ctaeth and so shoot arrows. Kvothe has invented a really ingenious device to stop arrows from hurting him. What stops him taking his arrow trap and taking a flower from the tree?

Nothing? (Probably the truth behind the story that he can turn arrows away, too.)

I'd sort of settled into the rhinna being the root for all the other versions.

More randomness... Allowing for the possibility of an epic ending, Kvothe's story is drawing all the strange old powers of the world to the Waystone Inn. He's named the Chandrian, by many names, repeatedly. We assume they may be anble to triangulate his position. He's revealed he spoke with the Cthaeh, marking him as a target for the Sithe. He's revealing the secrets of the Amyr. While that's not exactly getting around, he's kept Chronicler to long; he was supoosed to meet Skarpi in Baedn-Bryt on day two, the point at which we're at in the story. He's uttered fully Tehlu's prayer, thus calling him "in the proper ways."

Graham and Aaron went to Baedn and won't be back until the end of day three. Bast's rumors in addition to Graham's knowledge of Kvothe's wealth and his confession to Aaron give any temporal powers seeking Kvothe reason to investigate as well.

[thistlepong]

Itchy trigger finger...

[Spaceman Hobbes]

More randomness... Allowing for the possibility of an epic ending, Kvothe's story is drawing all the strange old powers of the world to the Waystone Inn. He's named the Chandrian, by many names, repeatedly. We assume they may be anble to triangulate his position. He's revealed he spoke with the Cthaeh, marking him as a target for the Sithe. He's revealing the secrets of the Amyr. While that's not exactly getting around, he's kept Chronicler to long; he was supoosed to meet Skarpi in Baedn-Bryt on day two, the point at which we're at in the story. He's uttered fully Tehlu's prayer, thus calling him "in the proper ways."

Graham and Aaron went to Baedn and won't be back until the end of day three. Bast's rumors in addition to Graham's knowledge of Kvothe's wealth and his confession to Aaron give any temporal powers seeking Kvothe reason to investigate as well.

So the book ends with Selitos and Larne sitting down at the bar. Kvothe brings them a glass of elderberry brand and after a few hours of heavy drinking they all hug it out.

Tehlu shows up and apologizes to everyone for being such a dick.

Then Skarpi and a drunk Sithe suggest they go burn Cthaeh to the ground. Which they do. Goddamn talking trees.

[Gaston de Foix]

Nothing? (Probably the truth behind the story that he can turn arrows away, too.)

I'd sort of settled into the rhinna being the root for all the other versions.

More randomness... Allowing for the possibility of an epic ending, Kvothe's story is drawing all the strange old powers of the world to the Waystone Inn. He's named the Chandrian, by many names, repeatedly. We assume they may be anble to triangulate his position. He's revealed he spoke with the Cthaeh, marking him as a target for the Sithe. He's revealing the secrets of the Amyr. While that's not exactly getting around, he's kept Chronicler to long; he was supoosed to meet Skarpi in Baedn-Bryt on day two, the point at which we're at in the story. He's uttered fully Tehlu's prayer, thus calling him "in the proper ways."

Graham and Aaron went to Baedn and won't be back until the end of day three. Bast's rumors in addition to Graham's knowledge of Kvothe's wealth and his confession to Aaron give any temporal powers seeking Kvothe reason to investigate as well.

You are forgetting Manet. There will be no resolution without Manet.

It's true that Chronicler was supposed to meet Skarpi and the Earl in Treya, Baedn-Bryt (is that a small kingdom?) but from my recollection and quick re-read that was to take place four days from Day 0, as it were.

Is there really enough time for Aaron & Co to reach Baedn-Bryt on Day 2, meet Skarpi/temporal powers and bring them back in time for the end of Day 3?

[two_by_two]

Thanks two_by_two. I thought alekhia was the one who brought up the connection, though.

...

For your snarling incredulity, I present another option. Aculeus Lackless is Denna's father as well as her patron, whom we'll call Bredon Ash. The descriptions of Meluan and Denna line up with disturbing accuracy while Laurian looks nothing like Lady Alveron. He has the resources to send her all over the world fitting a song together, farther than Arliden ever traveled; and the resources to keep Kvothe in the dark about his identity. He can offer the one thing no one else can: acknowledgment. He made it very clear that things would go badly for me if I ever made our relationship public. (WMF 8744) He doesn't think any of my suitors are good enough for me. (WMF 9879) Their family has an ancient secret box made from rhinna wood which, among other things, provides a connection to Faen and to Lanre. All that, and it gets rid of the pesky secret noble orphan trope. What about the song, you ask? Not Tally, you say? Laurian made Arliden sleep under the wagon for singing a dirty song about marrying a girl hardly older than their son.

Sorry. I lost track of where the first mention of that showed up. Apologies to alekhia; I don't mean to misattribute your very good idea.

So Denna would be Netalia? The support you give here is intriguing, but what about the rumors of Netalia running off with an Edema Ruh? It is obvious in WMF that Denna cannot stand a life of leisure, so that fits with her not wanting to be a noble. However, why would she become a prostitute (as she apparently did) instead of returning to her family? I think this idea bears thinking about, but I can see too many holes right now.

[Gaston de Foix]

The evidence for Denna being a 'prostitute' or a 'whore' while solid is not quite as overwhelming as people seem to be assuming. She has a complicated relationship between with her 'patrons'/suitors and the overheard conversation by Kvothe is meant as much for the insight into her character as it is a commentary on her past decisions which we reach largely by inference.

I would also point out that her prospects and circumstances changed dramatically by obtaining Bredon as a patron during the course of WMF. She's not stationery in her position in life. Rothfuss actually makes a point, twice, of highlighting her limits as to physical intimacy with Kvothe, a position that seems somewhat at odds with her hiring herself on a continuous basis. Yeah, Yeah, I hear you say, she's skittish about being touched but still a high class escort. Every other depiction of her relationship with men apart from that conversation carefully preserves the delicate ambiguity of her relationship with them. On first reading NOTW I actually thought her position was a bit louche but I never for a moment assumed her relationship with Sovoy was a john-hooker one and if you read the description by Sim for example

"He's still not over her. He really

loved her, you know. Treated her like a princess. He would have done anything

for her. But she left him anyway, no explanation.."

you see that it is very far from being one.

[thistlepong]

You are forgetting Manet. There will be no resolution without Manet.

It's true that Chronicler was supposed to meet Skarpi and the Earl in Treya, Baedn-Bryt (is that a small kingdom?) but from my recollection and quick re-read that was to take place four days from Day 0, as it were.

Is there really enough time for Aaron & Co to reach Baedn-Bryt on Day 2, meet Skarpi/temporal powers and bring them back in time for the end of Day 3?

This is why timelines, as much a hassle as they are to construct, are worthwhile. And probably why I shouldn’t sling bull without it handy…

Day 0 – Chronicler: An appointment with the Earl of Baedn-Bryt in Treya in 3 days.

Day 1

Day 2

Day 3 – Chronicler misses the appointment.

You’re right. Skarpi can’t make it from Treya, so if he does… cue music. Baedn-Bryt is an Earldom. Baedn and Treya are towns within it.

Baedn is most of a day’s travel from Newarre. Carter and Aaron are heading there guarding the Orrisons’ goods. Kvothe notes the morning of Day2 that they won’t be back until tomorrow. It’s implied that if Carter can’t find a new cart, he can take the King’s coin there. Any conversation about “the innkeeper tried to convince me he was Kvothe,” would draw the attention of at least some soldiers seeking the bounty.

So you have the Sithe, the Seven, Tehlu & Pals, maybe some Amyr, and the King’s men. And Skarpi misses it. Bummer for him. Maybe Manet gets him there.

So Denna would be Netalia? The support you give here is intriguing, but what about the rumors of Netalia running off with an Edema Ruh? It is obvious in WMF that Denna cannot stand a life of leisure, so that fits with her not wanting to be a noble. However, why would she become a prostitute (as she apparently did) instead of returning to her family? I think this idea bears thinking about, but I can see too many holes right now.

Netalia ran off with a traveling troupe. It happens. Look at the Levinshir girls. The rumor doesn’t even mention the Ruh, but it’s something we might easily assume. Denna had to learn Felward’s Falling, Daeonica, and the other plays she knows somewhere. In the world we’ve seen, one does that in troupe. She also had to learn to act and dress and speak the part of a lady as well as the courtly manners of Modeg, Vintas, and the Commonwealth at a minimum.

Why wouldn’t she return to her family? The scene in Severen covers that well when she outlines the options the budding young lady has. If her family disowned her, then it’s even less an option. And yet, if it is an option, what would she do for a father’s forgiveness? Fact is, she might have been able to make the transition fairly easily when she left the troupe; without ever selling herself outright.

[Gaston de Foix]

Nothing? (Probably the truth behind the story that he can turn arrows away, too.)

I'd sort of settled into the rhinna being the root for all the other versions.

I think 'rhin' and 'rhint' confusing though it may be, may have slightly different meanings.

I mean if the roots are similar, it implies that the flowers and the tree are somehow 'shaped' which is logically plausible and actually quite an interesting idea as a way of containing the Ctaeth. The shaped tree hypothesis allows one to explain the durability of the wood, high iron and copper content might be added by some combination of magic/alchemy.

However the Ctaeth is ancient, it was there when Iax stole the moon. Who could have shaped the tree except possibly Aleph?

Rothfuss likes the letter 'r' for trees: roah, rennel, rhinna.

[thistlepong]

I think 'rhin' and 'rhint' confusing though it may be, may have slightly different meanings.

I mean if the roots are similar, it implies that the flowers and the tree are somehow 'shaped' which is logically plausible and actually quite an interesting idea as a way of containing the Ctaeth. The shaped tree hypothesis allows one to explain the durability of the wood, high iron and copper content might be added by some combination of magic/alchemy.

However the Ctaeth is ancient, it was there when Iax stole the moon. Who could have shaped the tree except possibly Aleph?

Rothfuss likes the letter 'r' for trees: roah, rennel, rhinna.

I suppose we don't know that the rhinna flower comes from the rhinna tree; I've just been shorthanding it like that.

Timelines again: Faen needs to exist before the Cthaeh may exist within it. Iax (or Selitos, or Aleph) creates Faen along with the other "shapers, proud dreamers." They complete Faen with the creation of stars for its sky. Iax (or Selitos, or Aleph) speaks to the Cthaeh. Iax (or Selitos, or Aleph) pulls the moon into Faen. Lots of time to shape the tree. In fact, maybe it existed, like the silver tree in Murella, prior to Faen. But really, I figured rare trees with metal in the wood were leftovers from the Creation War era, like the scrael and the ruins of Belen and the Great Stone road.

EDIT: root rhinna, eaters rhinta, plural/possessive rhintae, later conjugate rhinata

[Sylvester]

Wow. I really liked the Netalia Lackless= Kvothe's mother theory, and I like this one even more!

Here's some more quick evidence I found:

-When Kvothe first meets Meluan, he thinks of the Eolian to where he could have met her before. And who does he often meet there but Denna?

-That could explain why Denna was in Severen at the same time as Kvothe, a coincidence that was often criticized but which could then be part of PR's machiavelic plot!

-When Kvothe eavesdrops on Denna, notice how quickly she gives the different options that the girl has after escaping a rich family? That shows to me that Denna is, if not a Lackless, from the nobility and/or a rich family.

-Given the relationship between the Lackless family and the Fae/Doors of Stone, could that explain why Denna's patron, presumably her father, has made her write a song about Lanre?

So, is her patron Bredon or not? Notice how convieniently Kvothe missed the Maer's wedding, where all of the Lackless family, including Aculeus, would be present?

Finally, if Denna's a Lackless, would that make Chronicler a cousin of some sort?

[RobMRobM]

Kvothe's mother is Nathalie Lockless, not Denna.

The best evidence (as discussed in a brilliant post in the Tor.com re-read) is the "Tally" nonsense song that got Kvothe's mother mad enough to make Dad sleep under the wagon. Kvothe thinks it's just about the bad meter, but if you look at the last three lines and sound them out, you hear "no tally lot less - i.e., Nathalie Lockless. She's properly ticked off because Arliden is punning on her name in the nonsense song. For further proof, Kvothe knows his mother is from a noble family, so it all fits. On top of that, you have the mother scolding Kvothe for a rude Lady Lockless song in WMF, the mother makes clear that Lady Lockless is a real person, and tells Kvothe he can apologize to Lady Lockless and to her. Final point is to look at the poem of the bear baiting troop in WMF. There is a Lockless poem there too, and one of requirements is a son of the blood - which, no doubt, will be Kvothe.

Rob

[two_by_two]

Kvothe's mother is Nathalie Lockless, not Denna.

The best evidence (as discussed in a brilliant post in the Tor.com re-read) is the "Tally" nonsense song that got Kvothe's mother mad enough to make Dad sleep under the wagon. Kvothe thinks it's just about the bad meter, but if you look at the last three lines and sound them out, you hear "no tally lot less - i.e., Nathalie Lockless. She's properly ticked off because Arliden is punning on her name in the nonsense song. For further proof, Kvothe knows his mother is from a noble family, so it all fits. On top of that, you have the mother scolding Kvothe for a rude Lady Lockless song in WMF, the mother makes clear that Lady Lockless is a real person, and tells Kvothe he can apologize to Lady Lockless and to her. Final point is to look at the poem of the bear baiting troop in WMF. There is a Lockless poem there too, and one of requirements is a son of the blood - which, no doubt, will be Kvothe.

Rob

We know this already; this is just an alternative crackpot theory, which I think is really interesting and merits discussion.

I said this in my massive first post above, but I think it may have gotten lost.

I was researching possible etymology ofsome of the words in NotW and WMF and stumbled across something veryinteresting. The selas flower is related etymologically to the word Selene, orthe moon (http://www.etymonlin...searchmode=none).In fact, the root selas itself means"light, brightness of heavenly bodies".

This seems far too clear of a referenceto be anything but deliberate on Pat's part. I don't know what the possibleramifications of this could be, but somewhere much further up in the forum (Iapologize for not providing a direct citation, but I didn't realize thisconnection until just now and failed to mark the place in the thousands ofposts) someone pointed out the suggested similarities between Denna and themoon. I believe there was some quote that went approximately like "Her facecaught a piece of my smile and reflected it back at me." And, of course, wemust note that Kvothe picks a selas flower for Denna.

Perhaps this theory holdsmore water than I originally gave it credit for. I think this might deservemuch more consideration.

I would also like to add that in WMF, page 23, Bast says, "And you were mooning over your ladylove something fierce." [emphasis mine] Probably just coincidence, possibly something more interesting.