The Wise Man's Fear V [Spoilers and speculation within]

[faek]

First post in this forum. (Yes, I signed up because of this thread, but I have read R.R. Martin as well :-)).

Great many good ideas, nice to see that there are other people spending as much time as I do on thinking about the books.

I have two "questions":

1. Why do so many people believe that Ambrose will be the king that is killed by Kvothe?

I don't get this at all. Sure, he's the natural antagonist at the University, but it feels quite boring if Kvothe don't get out in the world and make some real enemies. He can't spend his entire life fighting the bullies from his childhood.

2. Why do so many people believe that Kvothe is betrayed by Denna?

He is obviously still madly in love with her. (Just re-read how he talks about her in tNotW. Also, it's rather cleverly told that he grows Selas flowers at the back of the inn, which is both her flower and devilishly difficult to maintain). I think that it's far more likely that he is tricked to questioning her, like he did with Devi, or that she is killed because of something else that Kvothe does because he is deceived somehow.

[faek]

Doesn't seem to fit that well... In a previous thread, someone pointed out that she gave him the key, coin and candle... which is what Taborlin the Great had.

Then again, he has gotten 2 wooden rings (one that fits him perfectly from Auri and one from Meluan... he wears neither)

What fits rather well though is her gifts compared to Taborlin the Greats tools:

During the books he has receieved: 1 light and 1 coin (plus possibly some other stuff), both of which Kvothe thinks look really strange and unusual. Patrick also spares a couple of lines mentioning how Kvothe leaves Auri's gifts in his locked chest at Ankers to keep them safe right before he ends up in a shipwreck and loses almost every possession. Clearly, Patrick wants us to know that his gifts are safe.

[faek]

A couple of random thoughts:

=== Denna's patron ===

Denna's patron is somehow related to the fae or unnatural. After Kvothe makes the gram for the Maer, he meets up with Denna in town. She is to see her master in the middle of the night somewhere, and spends some time with Kvothe in the Maers gardens.

On their way to the garden Kvothe is talking about going for a "moonlit stroll" in the garden and Denna quickly corrects him:

"There's no moon tonight", she pointed out. "Or if there is, it's barely a slender sliver.".

Combining this with Felurians warning of the passing between normal land and fae, and the final warning "a wise man views a moonless night with fear", is enough for me to not only suspect but almost assume Denna's patron (and possibly herself as well) as being more than a little shady.

Also, a couple of pages later she says that she enjoys the moonless nights the best and that she "feel most like herself those days".

=== Haliax ===

There's a very education chapter in tNotW that speaks of the 4 doors of the human mind that can be escaped through if life is tough. They are

1. Sleep
   
2. Forgetting
   
3. Madness
   
4. Death
   

Also, and here comes the interesting part, throughout the books is dropped some information about Lanre (or rather Haliax). He is said to:

1. Not have slept for 5000 years
   
2. Not forget anything. (He talks about him forgetting about their purpose in a very sarcastic way when Kvothe finds his dead parents)
   
3. He is completely sane. (Selitos says he is, also the "story" Shehyn claims explicitly that he is sane).
   
4. He cannot die! Or rather, he wakes again
   

Obviously, he is kept from entering these "doors" of oblivion. I'd say that his purpose is either to bring destruction to the world (oh, the cliché :-)) or something a little more intricate that I haven't been able to put my finger on.

=== The Tahl ===

In WMF, Kvothe says that the Tahl has some mighty leaders that are not fighters but singers. Also, when Penthe speaks about the STD possibility she says that she would go to the Tahl to get cured. I think that they will figure a fair bit in the next book. Perhaps they even are the singers mentioned by Haliax?

[Gaston de Foix]

Faek these are some really insightful posts. The selas flower behind the inn was completely missed by me (I'm going to re-read to verify, but I believe you). I would urge to read the old threads (I know, they are really long...) since some of these ideas have already cropped up. To answer your questions.

1. The enmity with Ambrose has gone beyond mere childhood pettiness. Ambrose tries to have Kvothe killed, expelled and arrested. I'd say that's a fairly mature vendetta.

2. The line from NOTW and Chronicler's first conversation with Kvothe at the inn - it's an aborted sentence which implies Denna betrays Kvothe.

The point about the four doors was discussed by someone else in an earlier thread but it was a really good catch then and it's a really good catch now.

Re the purpose of the Chandrian

"or something a little more intricate that I haven't been able to put my finger on"!

Join the club- we've all gotten this far I think. The question is, can you push it further and identify the purpose of the Chandrian beyond cliche?

I've repeatedly defended Bredon as Denna's patron so while I think he may have dealings with the Fae I don't think he is Fae himself.

I agree about Auri's gifts and share the same speculation about the Tahl.

[thistlepong]

Just had a crackpot thought: has anyone compared Auri's gifts to Kvothe to the lists of seven things you need to open the Lackless door?

not yet?

Rhymes

^{“Lady Lackless” in itallics}

^{“The Lackless Door” in bold where it fits well, plain text where not so much}

1. Seven things has Lady Lackless – Seven things stand before
   
2. Keeps them underneath her black dress - The entrance to the Lackless door.
   
3. One a ring that’s not for wearing - One of them a ring unworn
   
4. One a sharp word, not for swearing
   
5. Right beside her husband’s candle - One a candle without light
   
6. There’s a door without a handle - One a door that holds the flood
   
7. In a box, no lid or locks - One a son who brings the blood
   
8. Lackless keeps her husband’s rocks
   
9. There’s a secret she’s been keeping - One a thing tight-held in keeping
   
10. She’s been dreaming and not sleeping - Then comes that which comes with sleeping.
    
11. On a road, that’s not for traveling - One a time that must be right
    
12. Lackless likes her riddle raveling.
    

Auri

1. _{no relation to Auri}
   
2. _{no relation to Auri}
   
3. wooden ring
   
4. unknown
   
5. handmade candle with flowers pressed in, smelling of lavender
   
6. possible correlation with the Four Plate Door which she provides access to
   
   also possibly related to the key that opens the moon

   
   

7. unknown
   
8. (part of the above)
   
9. (the wooden ring is for keeping secrets)
   
10. unknown
    
11. unknown possible relation to movement between Faen and the Corners
    
    - also possibly related to the coin which keeps him safe at night

    
    

12. (part of the above)
    

Those are the gifts I remember without looking. The sharp word could be whatever he says before she runs off. The one I remember is Amyr. Clues might lie in what she says is in the gifts.

[Gaston de Foix]

Everything Thistle said plus

Chapter 87, NOTW.

"A heavy question," she (Auri) said, then held her hand out to me. "I brought you a ring."

It was made of warm, smooth wood. "What does it do?" I asked.

"It keeps secrets," she said.

I held it to my ear.

Auri shook her head seriously, her hair swirling around her. "It doesn't tell them, it keeps them." She

stepped close to me and took the ring, sliding it onto my finger. "It's quite enough to have a secret," she

chided me gently. "Anything more would be greedy."

"It fits," I said, somewhat surprised.

"They're your secrets," she said, as if explaining something to a child. "Who else would it fit?"

I think this is actually a contender to be the ring of wood that Kvothe wears in the rhyme rather than the one Meluan Lackless gave him.

I thought sharp word was Caesura/Saicere. I took it as a pun.

[Kzad-bhat]

Yes, this has been discussed a few times. People have said that maybe one hand is rings of things Kvothe knows the name of and the other hand's rings mean something else per the Elodin scene about Fela wearing the Stone ring. People has said that the nameless ring might be Felurian's name. Don't quite understand that. I think Copper is a possibility for a nameless ring, because of the theory that copper is naming-resistant.

Also, you should most definitely read the first four threads. There is some amazing speculation in them and also answers to some of your questions (including dispositive evidence that Kvothe's mother is the runaway Lackless sister from an amazing catch by Teaspoon of Arliden's song about Kvothe's mom: Not tally a lot less = Natalia Lackless)

I can't find that poem... searched my kindle copy, but didn't find it... anyone have a kindle location for me to look it up?

[thistlepong]

I can't find that poem... searched my kindle copy, but didn't find it... anyone have a kindle location for me to look it up?

On the device just wordsearch Tally; it'll return instances of the word which you can follow to the poem. The Android and PC apps will return any words containing "tally" including verb conjugations and incidental appearances within other words.

Concerning the identity and position of Lady Lackless, another discussion wondered if the black dress indicated mourning or a widow and pointed out the repetition of husband. It made me wonder if the possession of male genitalia referred to matrilineal succession. /shrug

I have two "questions":

1. Why do so many people believe that Ambrose will be the king that is killed by Kvothe?

I don't get this at all. Sure, he's the natural antagonist at the University, but it feels quite boring if Kvothe don't get out in the world and make some real enemies. He can't spend his entire life fighting the bullies from his childhood.

2. Why do so many people believe that Kvothe is betrayed by Denna?

He is obviously still madly in love with her. (Just re-read how he talks about her in tNotW. Also, it's rather cleverly told that he grows Selas flowers at the back of the inn, which is both her flower and devilishly difficult to maintain). I think that it's far more likely that he is tricked to questioning her, like he did with Devi, or that she is killed because of something else that Kvothe does because he is deceived somehow.

In addition to what's been said already:

1. So many people believe Ambrose is the king Kvothe kills because attention is given two or three times to his ranking among the Vintish peerage and because the enmity has lasted and escalated over two years within the story.
   
2. Folk believe Denna betrays Kvothe because she's nominally the love interest, engaged in activities similar but possibly in opposition to Kvothe's, and 'cause she's everywhere.
   

I think Ambrose survives. There's some grudging admiration evinced in WMF along with the dislike. And it'd be tragic if his rival ended up the hero of the war he feels responsible for.

Regarding Denna, I was pretty sure about it going into WMF and even right after finishing. Now, not so much. I disagree about Kvothe being in love with her. Right up to the end of WMF he denies that very thing. She's a friendly mystery. She has a role to play, certainly.

The selas flower behind the inn was completely missed by me (I'm going to re-read to verify, but I believe you)...

He eats them with Felurian, too.

[Kzad-bhat]

I'm 90% convinced Ambrose becomes the King... makes sense that Kvothe won't drink to him and would be one of the worst results personally for him (and explain the price on his head)

[Sylvester]

About the Kingkiller business:

I think I read it a few pages ago, but I actually find convincing the theory that the king Kvothe kills...is actually the current Vintas king, Roderick or whatever his name is. I see it that way: we have some pretty convincing future plot points which seem to indicate that Kvothe will come to the Maer again, and perhaps reenter his service. So maybe for some reason, he'll make Kvothe kill the actual king to rule in his stead (or perhaps Meluan will ask that of him to "prove his valor", or something stupid like that), and otherwise will repent truthfully or not, and become the "Penitent King".

Another theory is that as most of the other parts of Kvothe's boast, Kingkiller is much less impressive than it sounds... He probably does kill a king, but maybe not on purpose or without knowing that he is a king... that's just pure speculation of course..

On the Chandrian business:

The fact that their purpose is somehow linked with the moon is obvious, so I won't bother putting all the quotes showing that, unless anyone needs convincing.

Next, notice how in the Fae, everyone seems to know about the Chandrian and their real existence... I mean, both Bast and Felurian (and the Chtaeh) know about the Seven, and accept them as real. So it seems logical that the Seven travel between the two worlds and that's where they go when they kill Kvothe's parents. That would induce their followers not to be from the Sithe, but were most likely the singers (I personally favor the Tahl theory over the Angels one, since it seems logical to assume that the angels can also travel from Mortal to Fae lands, otherwise where would they be all the time?) or, even more likely the Amyr. This is all based on the theory that the Chandrian travel to the Fae, which I find more likely that some random hidden lair or a parallel universe.

Then, my next step is to assume that their business in the Four Corners is to make sure that they are forgotten, wheras most of their actions take place in the Fae... that would by the way make sense for what will be happening in the Doors of Stone, since Kvothe must meet Bast, and we can assume that they will meet in the Fae, considering how much Kvothe seems to know about it, although it may be possible that all his knowledge comes from talks with Felurian.

Now, if we take for granted that their business lies in the Fae, couldn't it be that it has something to do with the Mael? We don't know much about them, except for he fact that Bast hates them and considers them very bad/evil ("I recognized it as one of the Mael. It was enough" or something like that after the skin dancer scene). Perhaps Mael is another word for shapers?

[Kzad-bhat]

About the Kingkiller business:

I think I read it a few pages ago, but I actually find convincing the theory that the king Kvothe kills...is actually the current Vintas king, Roderick or whatever his name is. I see it that way: we have some pretty convincing future plot points which seem to indicate that Kvothe will come to the Maer again, and perhaps reenter his service. So maybe for some reason, he'll make Kvothe kill the actual king to rule in his stead (or perhaps Meluan will ask that of him to "prove his valor", or something stupid like that), and otherwise will repent truthfully or not, and become the "Penitent King".

Another theory is that as most of the other parts of Kvothe's boast, Kingkiller is much less impressive than it sounds... He probably does kill a king, but maybe not on purpose or without knowing that he is a king... that's just pure speculation of course..

On the Chandrian business:

The fact that their purpose is somehow linked with the moon is obvious, so I won't bother putting all the quotes showing that, unless anyone needs convincing.

Next, notice how in the Fae, everyone seems to know about the Chandrian and their real existence... I mean, both Bast and Felurian (and the Chtaeh) know about the Seven, and accept them as real. So it seems logical that the Seven travel between the two worlds and that's where they go when they kill Kvothe's parents. That would induce their followers not to be from the Sithe, but were most likely the singers (I personally favor the Tahl theory over the Angels one, since it seems logical to assume that the angels can also travel from Mortal to Fae lands, otherwise where would they be all the time?) or, even more likely the Amyr. This is all based on the theory that the Chandrian travel to the Fae, which I find more likely that some random hidden lair or a parallel universe.

Then, my next step is to assume that their business in the Four Corners is to make sure that they are forgotten, wheras most of their actions take place in the Fae... that would by the way make sense for what will be happening in the Doors of Stone, since Kvothe must meet Bast, and we can assume that they will meet in the Fae, considering how much Kvothe seems to know about it, although it may be possible that all his knowledge comes from talks with Felurian.

Now, if we take for granted that their business lies in the Fae, couldn't it be that it has something to do with the Mael? We don't know much about them, except for he fact that Bast hates them and considers them very bad/evil ("I recognized it as one of the Mael. It was enough" or something like that after the skin dancer scene). Perhaps Mael is another word for shapers?

The simplest explanation of which King he kills is the current king... there are 13 potential deaths needed before Ambrose is crowned, so he seems unlikely.... I believe both the Maer and Meluan Lackless are ahead of him in line as well...

I'm sure him killing the King will be convoluted, but I am guessing that it will be the Vintas King... then again there are alot of potential Kings out there, we've only seen a small glimmer of the world. Killing a king from a different country would certainly start a war.

[williamjm]

I'm sure him killing the King will be convoluted, but I am guessing that it will be the Vintas King... then again there are alot of potential Kings out there, we've only seen a small glimmer of the world. Killing a king from a different country would certainly start a war.

I have a feeling that the King-killing is probably going to be one of the key events in the ending of the series and it would seem slightly unlikely (although not impossible) that it would involve a King who hasn't really be mentioned so far in the series. With only one book remaining in the trilogy I'm doubtful that many major characters or subplots are going to be introduced for the first time so late in the series. The Vint Monarchy is the one that's been mentioned the most in the series so far (the other monarchies have only had brief mentions) and two of the people in the line of succession are major supporting characters.

2. Why do so many people believe that Kvothe is betrayed by Denna?

He is obviously still madly in love with her. (Just re-read how he talks about her in tNotW. Also, it's rather cleverly told that he grows Selas flowers at the back of the inn, which is both her flower and devilishly difficult to maintain). I think that it's far more likely that he is tricked to questioning her, like he did with Devi, or that she is killed because of something else that Kvothe does because he is deceived somehow.

Kvothe still being in love with her doesn't necessarily mean she can't have betrayed him. That said, I'm not sure if she will actually betray him deliberately but I think that they might end up on opposing sides since it seems very possible that Denna's patron is opposed to Kvothe. Denna getting killed somehow is a possibility (do anyone ever refer to her in the present tense in the bits set in the Inn?), another source of a rift between them could be Kvothe killing her patron.

[Kzad-bhat]

I have a feeling that the King-killing is probably going to be one of the key events in the ending of the series and it would seem slightly unlikely (although not impossible) that it would involve a King who hasn't really be mentioned so far in the series. With only one book remaining in the trilogy I'm doubtful that many major characters or subplots are going to be introduced for the first time so late in the series. The Vint Monarchy is the one that's been mentioned the most in the series so far (the other monarchies have only had brief mentions) and two of the people in the line of succession are major supporting characters.

Kvothe still being in love with her doesn't necessarily mean she can't have betrayed him. That said, I'm not sure if she will actually betray him deliberately but I think that they might end up on opposing sides since it seems very possible that Denna's patron is opposed to Kvothe. Denna getting killed somehow is a possibility (do anyone ever refer to her in the present tense in the bits set in the Inn?), another source of a rift between them could be Kvothe killing her patron.

I'd put my wager on a Vintas King getting slayed by Kvothe (especially considering the Penitent King is clearly new), just saying there are still lots of open possibilities out there.

It's also possible that the person he kills outside of the Eolian (I'll have to double check that it was explicitly stated, but it seems implied he kills someone right outside the Eolian) is not the king.

I am still convinced that the Penitent King is Ambrose or his father. It seems logical to me for some reason.

As for Denna, maybe he is the one who betrays her... killing her patron for what he thinks is a good reason but turns out to be a terrible one. Who the patron is is yet to be seen, but I don't see Kvothe dealing with her getting beaten very well.

The current thought on the forefront of my mind right now... Auri/Princess Ariel gets betrothed to Ambrose by her father the king... Kvothe kills daddy, making Ambrose the king.

[Kmmontandon]

There's no reason why Kvothe can't kill both a King - likely Roderick - and Ambrose, for separate reasons. Ambrose outside the Eolian, the King elsewhere.

EDIT: To elaborate, perhaps Kvothe will kill Roderick for the Maer, Baron Jakis takes out those ahead of him on the throne including the Maer, and then Kvothe kills Ambrose either because of something involving Denna, or to punish the Baron while pursuing his own personal satisfaction. Thus, the Penitent King, who gained a throne at the price of his son's life.

.

[Spaceman Hobbes]

The simplest explanation of which King he kills is the current king... there are 13 potential deaths needed before Ambrose is crowned, so he seems unlikely.... I believe both the Maer and Meluan Lackless are ahead of him in line as well...

I'm sure him killing the King will be convoluted, but I am guessing that it will be the Vintas King... then again there are alot of potential Kings out there, we've only seen a small glimmer of the world. Killing a king from a different country would certainly start a war.

Whoa.. crackpot thought here. What if the king Kvothe kills is the Maer?

[thistlepong]

So I alluded to this awhile back and finally found some time to polish it. What follows is speculation given information presented in the text with limited support from author comments. I've segmented the argument to give each part some necessary attention and provide concise digestible posts.

[thistlepong]

Chronicles and Cobblestones: Part I

Taking Regicides – It’s Hard to Kill a King in Imre

“You’re Kvothe.”

“Kvothe the Bloodless”

“I saw the place in Imre where you killed him. By the fountain. The cobblestones are all shathered.” He frowned and concentrated on the word. “

Shattered.

They say no one can mend them.”

-NotW ch. 3 (kl740)

So says the sandy haired well dressed traveler. He doesn't recognize Kvothe Kingkiller. The individual referenced is unlikely to be the titular king or any king.

There's no monarch within hundreds of miles of Imre. The Commonwealth has no king. It has been pointed out that Maershon Lerand Alveron cannot be any of the mysterious players because his court responsibilities don't allow long voyages. This holds doubly true for the High King of Modeg and the kings of Atur, Vintas, and the Shald. The rulers of the Small Kingdoms may travel, but they should be as obscure and irrelevant to the story as they are in the story. In other words, it’s unlikely a regicide will occur in Imre due to a dearth of targets.

Kvothe's trial is an unlikely referent. Two full written accounts exist along with multiple witnesses and Kvothe's own version mentions no shattered stones. That Ambrose Jakis could both be in Imre and be king requires dreadful convenience. Eleven peers stand between him and the throne, including his father, all of whom must die without him being summoned back to Vintas. The news of his coronation in absentia or impending inheritance needs to reach him at the University concurrent with the mortal conclusion of his rivalry with Kvothe. Extremely improbable.

“It wasn’t called Folly, either. It was Kaysera, the poet-killer.”

-WMFhc p. 21 (kl537)

This should be obvious, but the blade that kills a king is probably not the poet killer unless it was so first.

[TheValyrianDragonlord]

Just finished Rothfuss's latest interview. Thanks for the link Pat!

One very interesting thing I learned. Ambrose didn't exist in the earlier drafts. Also when Kvothe got to the university he became best friends with Lorren.

[Spaceman Hobbes]

Just finished Rothfuss's latest interview. Thanks for the link Pat!

One very interesting thing I learned. Ambrose didn't exist in the earlier drafts. Also when Kvothe got to the university he became best friends with Lorren.

To be quite honest that really pushed me away from Kvothe killing Ambrose. I think it's fair to assume that Kvothe becoming a kingkiller has been kind of a big deal since the earlier drafts.

[Banjo Fiend]

Ive read through the previous threads as they were written and don't remember if a couple things were brought up. I recently reread Herbert's Dune and noticed the word "ruh". It referred to the metaphysical side of Paul.

The second had to do with the pronunciation of Ademre and Edema Ruh. I'm thinking they are actually quite similar in pronunciation and have diverged in spelling similar to the way Loeclos and Lackless did. It would make sense if he borrowed yet another plot device from WoT and the Adem and Edema Ruh are descended from the same stock similar to the Tinkers and the Aiel.