497 replies to this topic

[Dark Sister]

I just finished the book, and I was seriously disappointed in how the story of Quentyn Martell turned out. He traveled halfway around the world, then failed to woo Daenerys. That I can understand. But not only does he not woo her, he fails to advance the overall story in any direction at all, except for the end, when he accidentally frees Viseryon and Rhaegal. My question is, did we really need I don't know how many POV chapters dedicated to a character who neither affects any other major character in the story, nor offers any sort of insight into the overall plot. It would have been better if GRRM had just kept him as a side character, not as a POV. Maybe if he had been introduced earlier, I might have felt a greater deal of attachment for him, and been more emotionally hit when he gets burned. Instead, all I felt was a bit of pity, and anger that a potentially interesting plot point was dragged across the entire book before being burnt to a crisp.

Edited by Angalin, 20 July 2011 - 02:26 AM.

[ravi626]

Dark Sister, on 18 July 2011 - 09:36 PM, said:

I just finished the book, and I was seriously disappointed in how the story of Quentyn Martell turned out. He traveled halfway around the world, then failed to woo Daenerys. That I can understand. But not only does he not woo her, he fails to advance the overall story in any direction at all, except for the end, when he accidentally frees Viseryon and Rhaegal. My question is, did we really need I don't know how many POV chapters dedicated to a character who neither affects any other major character in the story, nor offers any sort of insight into the overall plot. It would have been better if GRRM had just kept him as a side character, not as a POV. Maybe if he had been introduced earlier, I might have felt a greater deal of attachment for him, and been more emotionally hit when he gets burned. Instead, all I felt was a bit of pity, and anger that a potentially interesting plot point was dragged across the entire book before being burnt to a crisp.

Not much to say other than I totally agree. I have a lot of issues with the flash-in-a-pan POVs...

[Rangers30]

I guess every book needs a Red Shirt?

[Claireducky]

So we could have a sun that "rises in the west and sets in the east."

[Ser Bullitin The Board]

Claireducky, on 19 July 2011 - 01:55 PM, said:

So we could have a sun that "rises in the west and sets in the east."

HA! Nicely.

[Delta1212]

I liked Quentyn. His death was sad, though it probably would have impacted me more if I hadn't pretty much written him off as dead as soon as he decided that he had to be the hero because the hero never dies in the songs.

[RhaegarTargaryen]

Because he was part of the story, and as Claire said.

He offered us a good point of view pertaining to the events unraveling around Dany that she could not see, as well.

The was GRRM works is that sometimes a POV won't be about the character himself, but about what he observes and how it will affect the more populous POVs.

[Tyrone Biggums]

I thought the book was named after him...

He tried to Dance with the Dragons - and failed miserably.

[unkle]

i was also very disappointed by quentyn martell. all the build up in AFFC led pretty much to naught in ADWD. instead you have a nerdy unheroic character completely different from his sister arianne. i thought he would be charming, not the wet blanket he turned out to be. the entire taming the dragon had a very leroy jenkins kind of feeling. you think with all the planning from prince doran, his son would be a bit more discreet.

getting his face melted off seemed a pretty fitting end for such a boring character.

the entire meeren build up so far has been a let down from quenty to tyrion to victarion. honstly its a little too much like the bachelor on ABC. is dany going to date each one? who will she give a rose to? stayed tuned for winds of winter!

Edited by unkle, 19 July 2011 - 02:02 PM.

[-eX-]

That Quentyn got POV chapters is simply the result from the often lament scattering of the important characters. He simply had no other character near him to tell his story from their perceptive.

[Dingsda]

As has been pointed out, his story, just as that of Brienne, is a sort of deconstruction of the classical knight's quest. They both set out to fail.

Quentyn furthermore shows us how all the mercenaries are converging on Meereen and how the dragons are set loose. Maybe the first was not necessary, but the second would have been quite anticlimactic without showing us how it happened (it is still a bit, as we are told through Barristan that the dragons are lose first).

To me it is far more interesting to see how Dorne will react to the news eventually. Aegon and the Golden Company landing in Westeros w/o Dany and Quentyn missing. Is Doran going to throw his lot in with the Golden Company or will he wait for Dany or will he do nothing at all? IIRC GRRM moved some Dorne-chapters (reaction chapters was the term used I believe) into the Winds of Winter. I think it will be a reaction either to Aegon or to the absence of Quentyn.

[Green Tyroshi]

He was there so the dragons could make a song ending "for I've tasted the Dornishman's son"
and people could make new Dornish jokes

[Claireducky]

unkle, on 19 July 2011 - 02:01 PM, said:

the entire taming the dragon had a very leroy jenkins kind of feeling.

New Achievement! QUENTYN JENKINNNNNNNNS!    

Title: The Roasted

[Delta1212]

Claireducky, on 19 July 2011 - 02:06 PM, said:

New Achievement! QUENTYN JENKINNNNNNNNS!    

Title: The Roasted

I think I prefer Leroy Martell, myself.

[nategator]

Because GRRM likes subverting tropes in fantasy.  

QM in another book would have been the hero: intelligent, well read, kind of bland personality, on a long journey to rescue a queen/princess who was "the most beautiful girl in the world".  He is accompanied by two companions -- one of whom is a big, strong, silent-type of figure and the other the charming rogue.  On their shoulders rest the fate of their kingdom.  After nearing the conclusion of their journey and facing murder by the jealous king, the nerdy hero decides to sneak in and steal the McGuffin, a dragon, to save the day.

QM is then burned to a crisp by said dragon and his romantic pursuit was shown as hapless by the wiser narrator who considered QM no more than mud.

Or to put it other words, if Rand al'Thor wouldn't last longer than a book in GRRM's universe.  

GRRM's is more than just being subversive.  It's also to make a point.  Too often fantasy authors try to flatter their expected readership, nerdy adolescent boys, by telling stories of similar characters getting the girl and glory, usually through a prophetic destiny and magic.  But in real life, those kind of guys NEVER get the girl just by being earnest or "brave."  What Martin is saying is that this type of story in fantasy is bullshit and lazy writing. By having QM think, well I'm the hero and thus safe, is that fantasy writers have went far too often to that particular well.

Considering that GRRM outsells everyone in the adult fantasy genre, I am inclined to agree with him.

[Pebbles]

I really like the Quentyn chapters and reading some of the comments I think I may have be in the minority.   I certainly don’t find his story arch and POV pointless, Tragic yes but not pointless.  
1.        Quentyn needs to die by Danny’s hand/dragon to set up friction with Drone.  And allow Dorran to support Aegon over Danny.
2.       The Dragons needed to be let out, and shown that they can live alongside humans without eating them if you provide food for them.  IE they don’t have to be kept chained.
3.       Quentyn needed to be a sympathetic charater and a nice guy, and he needed those chapeters so you would really feel for him and his tragic end, if he had less chapters no-one would care, and some of those chapters showed important things like the buildup of Danny's enemies and how impossible it was for friends to reach her.  He needed to die in a way that would make Danny feel guilty and angry at the same time.  Hey he did try to steal her dragons.    But he only did so because she basically said  “Go home, I’m not interested, but hey, you could be a dragon rider”  She planted the idea in his head to go home with a Dragon, since she wans’t going anywhere.
4.       It’s a Tragic Story because Quentyn really wanted that Yornwood Girl, but he’ll do his duty to Dorne and put that life behind him.  He’s a wonderfully written character.  And a genuine nice guy.   He would have made a good and loyal husband (he was even prepared to accept Danny having other lovers).  Quentyn could have been Danny’s support instead his death at Danny’s dragon could be her doom.   Quentyn really was a perfect knight from one os Sansa’s stories but also being young, foolish and human and now fried.    so yeah I’m gonna cry for Quentyn.

Now you have Dorran who will be upset he lost a Son.  He’s gonna want to push Arleene (SP) to marry Aegon.  Although Connington will want Aegon to marry Danny (but if he takes Danny then he takes second place even if his claim is better)  Aegon is young enough that he may try to be top dog and side-line Dany (thus proving even with the grooming he wants power because its his right). And Arleene is gonna want vengeance/retribution for Quetyn.   So yeah Quentyn’s death was necessary for the plot.

[Triskele]

Pebble that Hides, on 19 July 2011 - 03:42 PM, said:

I really like the Quentyn chapters and reading some of the comments I think I may have be in the minority.   I certainly don't find his story arch and POV pointless, Tragic yes but not pointless.  
1.        Quentyn needs to die by Danny's hand/dragon to set up friction with Drone.  And allow Dorran to support Aegon over Danny.

I hadn't even thought of how Dorne (and Doran) is going to react to this.  Nice call.  

Although I think it could turn out a few ways.  I can envision a scenario in which they blame Dany because it was a dragon that took Quent out, but I can also envision a scenario in which Drink and Archibald make it back to Dorne and explain to Doran what happened.

[Alexia]

Nim Chimpsky, on 19 July 2011 - 03:48 PM, said:

Although I think it could turn out a few ways.  I can envision a scenario in which they blame Dany because it was a dragon that took Quent out, but I can also envision a scenario in which Drink and Archibald make it back to Dorne and explain to Doran what happened.

Didn't one of those boys call her a "bitch queen" and say that she treated him terribly?  I'm not sure their return to Dorne would do anything but make it worse.

[Solid Snake]

Yeah, I had absolutely no problem with Quentyn's inclusion and his ultimate fate. As has been said, he needed to unleash the dragons, potentially so that Victarian can obtain possession of them, and he needed to die, for the sake of Dorne's plot. Prince Doran rested everything on the marriage pact between Martell and Targaryen, so it will be interesting to see what he decides to do in the next book. If everything had gone exactly according to plan, as nothing ever does in this series, how boring would that have been?

Also, perhaps it was only me, but I loved that Quentyn was convinced he could tame the dragons because he thought it was his destiny. Just a great subversion of our traditional assumptions about these fantasy tales, and a perfect, tragic ending for him.

[Lummel]

I also like the Quentyn chapters, in part along similar lines to what Pebble has said but also because "The best-laid schemes o' mice an' men /Gang aft agley,/ An' lea'e us nought but grief an' pain, / For promis'd joy!"

In AFFC we have the Dorne Chapters and have that final revelation that all this time Prince doran has been sitting and plotting and brooding on Fire and Blood and so I entered ADWD with this fantastic anticiption that Quentyn was going to make his way east, marry Dany, or maybe just join her inner circle and bring back winged revenge for his people.  But then it all goes wrong - because he wants to be a hero and not fail his father.  In my opinion that's the kind of thing that makes ASOIAF great.