JKeats Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Yeah maybe. Tyrion is smart enough to realise she never did, and probably never would, love him though. He's not stupid and he was paying her. Shae's betrayal is nothing compared to what Tywin did to his wife.My take is that he believed both at the same time: that she did really love him, and that it was all just an act. People are funny that way, even clever people like Tyrion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Kraken Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Okay, I like Tyrion. I really do. But in no way do I think Shae "had it coming" or that her awful murder was justified. I also don't think it's morally acceptable that he murdered his own father, but I can understand this action better and somewhat forgive Tyrion for it. But unlike Tywin, Shae didn't owe Tyrion any loyalty. A father should be a certain way with his son, and Tywin failed spectacularly at being a father and severely damaged Tyrion, but Shae didn't owe him anything after he stopped paying her. She wasn't his wife, his girlfriend, or even his friend... He was paying her for her company, and he seems to forget that. She embarrassed him, and he was pissed. That doesn't make her murder okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Littlefinger's Lash Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 If Shae had it coming, I hope Tyrion fanboys who say it agree that he has it coming too now and they should cheer up his death. After all he's committed quite a few more serious crimes than a perjury.Its not the perjury, but the betrayal that's the problem. But sure, you know the one rule of the game of thrones. win or die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlespider Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Its not the perjury, but the betrayal that's the problem. But sure, you know the one rule of the game of thrones. win or die.*yawn*here we go again.So Shae was Tyrion's sworn vassal? She had broken a contract with him? Or an oath? Can you point to place in the text where that contract or oath is referred to?No?I thought not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Littlefinger's Lash Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Okay, I like Tyrion. I really do. But in no way do I think Shae "had it coming" or that her awful murder was justified. I also don't think it's morally acceptable that he murdered his own father, but I can understand this action better and somewhat forgive Tyrion for it. But unlike Tywin, Shae didn't owe Tyrion any loyalty. A father should be a certain way with his son, and Tywin failed spectacularly at being a father and severely damaged Tyrion, but Shae didn't owe him anything after he stopped paying her. She wasn't his wife, his girlfriend, or even his friend... He was paying her for her company, and he seems to forget that. She embarrassed him, and he was pissed. That doesn't make her murder okay.But he thought she loved him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The King in the South Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Its not the perjury, but the betrayal that's the problem. But sure, you know the one rule of the game of thrones. win or die.Betrayal? What betrayal?He paid her to have sex with him. Then he stopped paying her. What did she owe him after that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlespider Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 But he thought she loved him.That was his mistake, not hers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Littlefinger's Lash Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 *yawn*here we go again.So Shae was Tyrion's sworn vassal? She had broken a contract with him? Or an oath? Can you point to place in the text where that contract or oath is referred to?No?I thought not.No. And I have no problem with her betraying him. even if they had been married. Its the prudent move on her part. But he caught her and I also don't have any problem with him feeling betrayed and killing her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Ilyn's Tongue Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Okay, I like Tyrion. I really do. But in no way do I think Shae "had it coming" or that her awful murder was justified. I also don't think it's morally acceptable that he murdered his own father, but I can understand this action better and somewhat forgive Tyrion for it. But unlike Tywin, Shae didn't owe Tyrion any loyalty. A father should be a certain way with his son, and Tywin failed spectacularly at being a father and severely damaged Tyrion, but Shae didn't owe him anything after he stopped paying her. She wasn't his wife, his girlfriend, or even his friend... He was paying her for her company, and he seems to forget that. She embarrassed him, and he was pissed. That doesn't make her murder okay. :agree: Lady Kraken. I couldn't have expressed it as well as that, but that's largely how I feel.My take is that he believed both at the same time: that she did really love him, and that it was all just an act. People are funny that way, even clever people like Tyrion.Yeah I can understand that. Tyrion was slightly self-delusional regarding Shae. He obviously had feelings for her and therefore took her betrayal personally, rather than objectively (in contrast to his usual nature regarding people he pays - eg. Bronn). I just feel his motives for her murder (revenge, jealousy) are completely different to the ones he had for Tywin's (retribution) and highlight a more sinister, less sympathetic side of his personality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlespider Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 No. And I have no problem with her betraying him. even if they had been married. Its the prudent move on her part. But he caught her and I also don't have any problem with him feeling betrayed and killing her.She didn't betray him. She owed him jackshit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Littlefinger's Lash Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Betrayal? What betrayal?He paid her to have sex with him. Then he stopped paying her. What did she owe him after that?She didn't owe him anything. But he thought she loved him, so he feels betrayed.That was his mistake, not hers.Which is probably why he killed her and she didn't kill herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fearsome Fred Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 As long as folks are busy justifying murder, I am surprised nobody has mentioned another of Tyrion's victims: Symon Sivertongue.The standard issue justifications here are: (1) He deserved it; he was a blackmailer; and (2) he deserved it; he threatened Shae's life.Now, back to reality:(1) Symon made no attempt to blackmail Tyrion. It was Tyrion who sought out and approached Symon, in an attempt to purchase his silence and his absence from King's Landing. Symon (who was drunk at the time) basically said "screw you" in response, and refused to accept these dictated terms. Which was well within his rights. He did, however, hint that if he had other gainful employment, he would have no need to sing songs about the former Hand.(2) Symon knew nothing of any threat/danger to Shae's life. It was Tyrion who insisted on putting Shae's life in danger, by continuing to see Shae after Tywin's threat (Tywin's threat did not apply to Tyrion's former whores, or he would have hanged Alayaya). To keep her safe, all he had to do was stay away from her. The worst thing Symon did was hint that he would not mind if Tyrion pulled a "Tonya Harding" on one of Symon's competitors. But that pales in comparison to Tyrion's own crimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The King in the South Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 She didn't owe him anything. But he thought she loved him, so he feels betrayed.Which is probably why he killed her and she didn't kill herself.I felt betrayed when my girlfriend broke up with me, doesn't give me the right to strangle her.edit: @FearsomeFred, I try to bring up the Symon murder every time someone attempts to discuss Tyrion's morality, and they all just make excuses :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Littlefinger's Lash Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 She didn't betray him. She owed him jackshit.No she didn't owe him anything. But I don't think Vargo Hote owed Tywin anything either. I still was ok with Tywin send the mountain to fall on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Littlefinger's Lash Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I felt betrayed when my girlfriend broke up with me, doesn't give me the right to strangle her.edit: @FearsomeFred, I try to bring up the Symon murder every time someone attempts to discuss Tyrion's morality, and they all just make excuses :(You don't live in westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I felt betrayed when my girlfriend broke up with me, doesn't give me the right to strangle her.edit: @FearsomeFred, I try to bring up the Symon murder every time someone attempts to discuss Tyrion's morality, and they all just make excuses :(If your girlfriend got on the stand and made shit up about you, in a capital case, I wouldn't get too worked up about wacking her Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlespider Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Feeling betrayed =/= actually being betrayed.Shae did no betray Tyrion. If Tyrion had stopped to think about (1) how he'd treated her, (2) her precarious social situation in KL, (3) the ruthless brutality of his father and his sister -- any of these things besides himself -- he might have put 2 and 2 together and realized that the situation is much more complex than what he thinks.But he doesn't do that. He is self-focused. Understandably so, because he's being persecuted and his self-worth is being trashed and dragged through the mud. But Shae's murder is a byproduct of his self-focus.Or, another reading: Tyrion kills Shae because of his aggression at his father, not at her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Littlefinger's Lash Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Let's say that comment was designed entirely to insult and humiliate Tyrion. Why would she do it?Oh, right, because Tyrion was a douche to her.Regardless, that comment had zero to do with the outcome of his trial, and a lot to do with her murder.Oh see I thought Tyrion treated her really well. Yeah it not the outcome of the trial that gets her killed. If he'd been found innocent and found her where he did after that he still would have killed her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The King in the South Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 If your girlfriend got on the stand and made shit up about you, in a capital case, I wouldn't get too worked up about wacking herYeah, except it would still be murder and I would still deserve the punishment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Littlefinger's Lash Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Yeah maybe. Tyrion is smart enough to realise she never did, and probably never would, love him though. He's not stupid and he was paying her. Shae's betrayal is nothing compared to what Tywin did to his wife.Yeah, he has a blind spot. What you're smart enough to know better than and what you actually believe are two different things. The fact that he's smart enough to know better just made him more distraught. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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