Christina Ceriddwynn Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 it wasnt a character comparison so much as a "Ooooh I am enlightened and discovering my inner self" comparison....I would just like to see Tyrion accept some self-responsibility for a change and quit blaming everyone else for his actions. I do think his decision to kill Shae was out of line in that she was never more than she presented herself to be. HE is the one who saw her as more and made her into more....when he should've known better.Ultimately, he betrayed himself when he killed her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Littlefinger's Lash Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 it wasnt a character comparison so much as a "Ooooh I am enlightened and discovering my inner self" comparison....I would just like to see Tyrion accept some self-responsibility for a change and quit blaming everyone else for his actions. I do think his decision to kill Shae was out of line in that she was never more than she presented herself to be. HE is the one who saw her as more and made her into more....when he should've known better.Ultimately, he betrayed himself when he killed her.What do you mean? I think he accepts responsibility for his actions. Can't he accept responsibility and kill her? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Ceriddwynn Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Perhaps its interpretation because I felt his killing was merely his own bruised ego and not for an actual "wrong" committed but eh...it's an interpretation!Great thing about books like this is that GRRM writes with enough detail and yet that small bit of vagueness to leave it to the reader to interpret the story on their own.Granted we are never given a POV for Tywin or Shae so we don't know what their personal reasons were for their actions. We only have Tyrion's interpretation.I somehow doubt Shae testified against Tyrion without a little bit of "coercion" from the Lannisters (Cersei and Tywin). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Tywin can be justified or if not I don't care at all that he died as in my view he deserved death.Shae not but there are some mitigating circumstances of that murder that makes us understand Tyrion but not justify his actions. There is a difference between the two. In a fair trial where the court possessed full information he would still be punished for it but IMO those mitigating circumstances would be considered by the court. (Tyrion's state of mind, Shae's actions towards him, him being unjustly punished in that trial and being a condemned man and so on). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ServantOnIce Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 There is no justification for murder.It wasn't murder, it was killing. Big difference . . . Shae and Tywin deserved killing for working to kill him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Martell Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 What about the fact if Tyrion wanted to escape and not be murdered for a crime he didn't commit it behoved him to make sure Shae didn't walk to the privy and scream for the guards before he escaped. So Tyrion: A) just killed the man who orchastrated the gang rape of his innocent wife, B.) he's wanted for murdering the King and is set to be executed for that crime, C) a woman who testified against him is sitting there and could be a huge speed bump in his escape...Justified I dunno, but not so cut and dry either from a strategic standpoint if not a moral one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Ceriddwynn Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 well....Tyrion will have to answer to himself for killing Daddy but, agreed, no one can argue Tywin did deserve his fate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catastrophe Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 They had it coming, right? I mean Tyrion was in a state of insanity and they both said the worst thing they could have. Tywin still called her a whore, like 5 times! and Shae said my giant of a... Lannister :bawl: .Uhh... Was the OP being sarcastic here, or trolling? Or is he really just making the least convincing argument ever?I agree that Shae and Tywin's murders were partially justified (at least, as much as cold-blooded murder can ever be justified), but the "defense" Ndrew of Typhgarian made here puts Tyrion in a far worse light than anything his detractors ever said. The way he phrased it makes it sound like Tyrion murdered them just for making fun of him... =/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arya horsefaceless Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 My take, Tywin had it coming to him...Shea, not so much. I can see why Tyrion did it, and maybe in todays world both would be crimes of passion or whatever...but at the end of the day murder is murder. There's no justification for that, even if I felt pretty good for Tyrion when he killed Tywin.Basically it's immoral and I don't think there is justification for it, but I'm glad he did it (at least with Tywin, Shea didn't deserve it IMO, she was just a whore and was probably put in a spot of testify against Tyron and live, or don't and die). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The King in the South Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 It wasn't murder, it was killing. Big difference . . . Shae and Tywin deserved killing for working to kill him.Give me a break. Tywin didn't even want to kill Tyrion, there was just so much evidence. He failed at both kinds of trials, I almost thought I he was guilty until I remembered I'd seen it through his POV. And Shae was coerced into testifying by Cersei. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Net-Viper X Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I must say I do not fault Tyrion for killing Tywin, that one was well deserved and Tywin was pretty well asking for it with his attitude during that final meeting. I don't see how anyone could ever consider Tywin to be Tyrions father with how he ignored him and mistreated him. Tywin may have been the guy that conceived him, but he was not a father for one minute in his life, just the asshole that got Tyrions mom pregnant. All Tyrion did was kill perhaps the biggest tyrant and bully in his life, a person who completely destroyed what might very likely have been Tyrions one chance at true happiness. Tywin got what was coming as far as I'm concerned.As for Shea, I can't really hold it against her for leaving Tyrion or testifying against him, or even being in Tywins bed. She was completely at the mercy of the Royal family at that point and would have had no other choice. I'm sure she expected to be tortured or killed at any time and probably followed orders in an effort to save herself. She was a whore after all and in it for herself, not for others, and Tyrion seemed to be fully aware of this in those moments of clarity following an orgasm.Regardless of all that, if I had just lost everything and spent weeks or months in some horrible gulag because someone told a totally bogus lie of a testimony to save their own ass, I would be carrying around a pretty big grude. I wouldn't have wanted to kill her, just flay enough skin for some nice gloves is all. Given Tyrions circumstances however, flaying would have taken too long and been noisy as hell, so he just had to take justice how he could get it, with a little twist of the gold chain. He should have just choked her unconscous though, she didn't deserve death. I DO fault Tyrion for their misfortune, he should never have brought her into Kings Landing in the first place. A lot of his troubles there came from bringing her and having to hide it, she was like a big gap in Tyrions otherwise near impervious armor, his soft underbelly that all the enemies will go for to harm him. Having been the fool and brought her, he should have certainly sent her away after Varys found her so quickly. He asked for trouble and he got it, and she got it with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyoftheNorth72 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 IMO Shae took the blame and frustration Tyrion had ever felt for every slight, betrayal, look of disgust, and dismissal he had received from every other woman he had ever met. She just happened to be the most convenient target for the rage he had been generally feeling for years regarding his dealings with women. Her testimony enraged him, no doubt, and finding her in Tywin's bed ...but neither seemed to surprise him much. I am not saying this excused him murdering her in any way, just suggesting there was more to it than being insulted by the "giant of Lannister" remark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WenchofTarth Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Why am I supposed to cry for Shae again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlespider Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Why am I supposed to cry for Shae again?Um, nobody's asking you to cry for Shae. I didn't. She irritated the fuck out of me.But I didn't cheer at her death. Neither did I think think of it as in any way "justified." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catastrophe Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Why am I supposed to cry for Shae again?Because she was an innocent peasant girl who just wanted to be rich at the expense of someone else's life, and because Tyrion is such an irredeemable monster that anyone who ever did anything bad to him was completely justified in doing so, even if they had no way of knowing what a horrible person he was. Poor Shae. :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WenchofTarth Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Um, nobody's asking you to cry for Shae. I didn't. She irritated the fuck out of me.But I didn't cheer at her death. Neither did I think think of it as in any way "justified."Given your passionate defense of her and attacking Tyrion I find this rather odd I have to say. In our current view of morality no her death wasn't justified. In Westeros such revenge is commonplace and accepted so I have to say I am not going to condemn Tyrion in the slightest. I would condemn him more with his killing his father in that kinslaying is judged one of the worst crimes and sins one can commit. Like I mentioned in the morality thread I don't care for judging the characters by modern standards. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hear Me Roar! Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Tywin definitely had it coming.I don't know how any of you can sit here with a straight face and tell me you are mad that Tyrion "murdered" Tywin. Seriously, the world got a little safer once Tywin croaked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Oh see I thought Tyrion treated her really well. Yeah it not the outcome of the trial that gets her killed. If he'd been found innocent and found her where he did after that he still would have killed her. I don't think so. I think that it was the "Lion of Lannister" jibe that sent him over the edge and he had nothing to lose at that point. As far as I am concerned he treated her very well. She jumped at the chance to be his kept whore versus staying at the camp to be passed around by soldiers. The most telling fact is that she never tried to leave, even when he offered to marry her off to a handsome tall knight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The King in the South Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Tywin definitely had it coming.I don't know how any of you can sit here with a straight face and tell me you are mad that Tyrion "murdered" Tywin. Seriously, the world got a little safer once Tywin croaked.I'm mad because Tywin was probably the best villian the series had at the time. Personally I would have preferred Tyrion going to Essos, then coming back and killing him later on in book 6-7, would have given Tyrion a much more defined role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silmarien Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Double post, sorry :blushing: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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