156 replies to this topic

[Lady Lea]

Hi, guys, so this is something that came up in a Arys/Arienne post that we thought would be interesting to discuss.

Ser Barristan wasn't around KL anymore by the time Sansa was being beat by the Kingsguard knights. But do you think that if he wasn't dismissed he would have beat her, or would he have said no, like the Hound?

Would he follow the king's orders? Would he do the "honorable" thing? Did he just watch Lord Stark get roasted that time?

[Khal Pono]

Good question. I don't think he would have defied the king, but he would have done his best to divert that particular honor into the Blounts and Trants and Moores of the KG.

But what if the king had said, "No Ser Barristan, I don't want Boros to beat her, I want YOU to beat her"... I actually can't answer that question; maybe the universe would explode from the paradox at that point

[Ser Hippie]

I'd be surprised if he didn't beat her, although he'd probably complain first. When he's removed from the Kingsguard, he gives every indication that he would have continued serving until his death since that was tradition, regardless of how he felt about Joffrey.

[Greatjon_umber]

This really is tough, because Barristan looked the other way during Aery's rule plenty of times, he obviously held honor and duty above all else, but to be forced to do the beating himself? I mean, honor demands he obey his vows and his king, but being Knight, which he takes seriously, demands he also protect the innocent. And I can't think of any character more innocent in the story then Sansa. So in my eyes, I think Barristan would fold. He'd push off the responsibility to some other KG, I just can't imagine him beating some helpless young girl.

[Blue-eyed Onion]

Interesting. Hmmm, let's put it this way too:

Would Barristan beat the crap out of Sansa like the other Kingsguard, or perhaps less theoretical, would he beat and kill some other innocent person at the orders of his Queen Daenerys?

I believe he would, no doubt.

[Kittykatknits]

I'll quote myself from the original thread:

Quote

I have a pretty low opinion of Barristan and believe that he represents everything that is wrong with the KG and makes a mockery of knighthood, despite so many who think he is an honorable man.
I think he would have hit her. He may have protested at first but in the end, he would have done exactly as Arys did. He took his vows as a member of the KG very seriously and would have obeyed the king.

Yes, he would have beat her. No question in my mind.

[Gurkhal]

He'd done as Arys Oatkheart (I think it was...) who at first objected but then went through although hit as loose as he dared. Good old Barristan would never refuse an order from his king, no matter if its Aerys, Robert or Joffrey.

[Richard Rivers]

That is a good question, because as you mention who knows what the Mad King had Barristan do in the past, besides what we read about.  One would assume similar awful things.  I think he may have done so, and elected to do it over the others, and just been slightly less mean about it.  If there is such a thing when one is asked to hit a teenage girl.

[Khal Pono]

Maybe he just would have said, "You know, your Grace, it's late and I have some important things to write in the White Book, so I'll see you later!" and then bolted for his room

Edited by Khal Pono, 11 June 2012 - 02:25 PM.

[Kittykatknits]

After thinking about this for a minute, I'll take it a step further. Not only do I think he would do it, I believe he would apologize to her afterwards as a way to assuage his guilt.

[Greatjon_umber]

Khal Pono, on 11 June 2012 - 02:22 PM, said:

Maybe he just would have said, "You know, your Grace, it's late and I have some important things to write in the White Book, so I'll see you later!" and then bolted for hsi room

Haha, he walks into the throne room, Joffrey glances down from his throne. "Ser Barristan, beat this little girl and teach her her place!" Barristan just stops in his tracks, looks around and says "Hey this isn't where I parked my car." And just walks out.

[Maxpey]

Khal Pono, on 11 June 2012 - 02:17 PM, said:

Good question. I don't think he would have defied the king, but he would have done his best to divert that particular honor into the Blounts and Trants and Moores of the KG.

But what if the king had said, "No Ser Barristan, I don't want Boros to beat her, I want YOU to beat her"... I actually can't answer that question; maybe the universe would explode from the paradox at that point

Great hypothetical question.  I believe that the only thing Ser Barristan would find less honorable than a Knight of the Kingsguard striking a child would be a Knight of the Kingsguard murdering a child.  In one of his POV in ADWD Barristan recalls that he would have killed Robert if he saw that Robert took pleasure in the death of Elia and her children.  

That having been said, he admired Ser Gerold Hightower among all the Kingsguard.  If you recall, it was Ser Gerrold who told Jamie that as much as it turned his stomach, he had to watch while Aerys tortured and murdered Lord Rickon Stark and Brandon Stark because as a member of the Kingsguard he was sworn to obey the king.

However, he was also pretty pissed when Joffrey fired him, so much so that he threw down his sword at Joffrey's feet and then called him "boy" instead of your grace.  As such, I could see him losing his temper over such an outrageous demand, as it would be beneath a member of the Kingsguard.  I think he would have thrown down his sword and walked away.

Edited by Maxpey, 11 June 2012 - 02:31 PM.

[Alric Stark]

I do not think he would have beat her. He already stated he would have killed Robert after accepting his pardon if he had been there when Rhaegar's children bodies were presented.

[Lady Lea]

Kittykatknits, on 11 June 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

After thinking about this for a minute, I'll take it a step further. Not only do I think he would do it, I believe he would apologize to her afterwards as a way to assuage his guilt.

Well that would have been priceless

[Lady Lea]

Alric Stark, on 11 June 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

I do not think he would have beat her. He already stated he would have killed Robert after accepting his pardon if he had been there when Rhaegar's children bodies were presented.

I missed this in the book!! Anyone have a quote?

[Winter's Knight]

Kittykatknits, on 11 June 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

After thinking about this for a minute, I'll take it a step further. Not only do I think he would do it, I believe he would apologize to her afterwards as a way to assuage his guilt.

Yes, I think so too.

[Blue-eyed Onion]

So far the man is an unquestioning and absolutely loyal soldier first and foremost, beyond and above his knightly morals. If the character of Daenerys is going the 'Mad Queen' route, then the author should reflect the resulting conflict of the Barristan character. Should be interesting.

[Grimwolfe]

he wouldn't hurt a child, thats his one major hatred in the world, he'd refuse

[l3ol3o]

Wow this is a tough one. Either way his honor is stained. He has to choose between a woman or disobeying his King. Both would break his vows and both would dishonor him.

I think he would protest as much as he could but if Joffrey insisted that he beat Sansa, I think he would although as gentle as possible and with puke in his mouth while he did it.

[Winter's Knight]

Lady Lea, on 11 June 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:

I missed this in the book!! Anyone have a quote?

Here:

Quote

“Prince Rhaegar had two children,” Ser Barristan told him. “Rhaenys was a little girl, Aegon a babe in arms. When Tywin Lannister took King’s Landing, his men killed both of them. He served the bloody bodies up in crimson cloaks, a gift for the new king.” And what did Robert say when he saw them? Did he smile? Barristan Selmy had been badly wounded on the Trident, so he had been spared the sight of Lord Tywin’s gift, but oft he wondered. If I had seen him smile over the red ruins of Rhaegar’s children, no army on this earth could have stopped me from killing him. “I will not suffer the murder of children. Accept that, or I’ll have no part of this.”

Quote

Would he see Sansa as a child though? She is "a maid flowered".