On Cersei Lannister

[Winter's Knight]

Hating Cersei is the closest we have come to an agreement as a group. Her detractors swear that she is a vile conniving cunning, heartless, power hungry woman who'd gladly sell her children for power.

Her supporters, rather than try and sift through the evidence are generally ready to defend her against the crazier claims "seduced Jaime into incest") but are often hesitant to attack claims made in the text.

And that stops here.

I have listed out some of her most quoted incidents from the first four books and my opinions on each. I shall keep the Walk of Shame for another day.

Lady

1. She expresses a dislike for direwolves early in the books: "There is something unnatural about those animals,” she said. “They are dangerous. I will not have any of them coming south with us."
   
2. 
   Contrary to the general mood of this forum, she is right.Direwolves are dangerous animals that react to their owner's emotions. Like faithful dogs, they're aggressive towards people who do not like their owners.Unlike most pet dogs, direwolves kill. Summer, Nymeria and Grey Wind attack people-Grey Wind attacked a friend when he chomped off Umber's fingers.
   
3. We can assume that she appealed to her husband to get Ned to leave the wolves behind and that he denied her.
   
4. Her son is attacked by a direwolf. Now, take yourself out of the scene and forget that this is Joff and Arya. The situation involves a direwolf having attacked the Crown Prince. Said direwolf must be put down. All direwolves near the prince must be put down because direwolves are by nature dangerous.
   

Robert's Bastards

Shameless copy/paste from my earlier thread:

1. Janos Slynt refuses to name Cersei to Tyrion when asked who gave him the order. But the soldiers chasing Gendry freely demand him in the name of the Queen. So the order was so secret that Tyrion did not hear of it at all but the common men-at-arms chasing Gendry know.
   
2. Cersei doesn't like killing children-she freaks out when Jaime pushes Bran and does not attempt to silence him later.
   
3. Venturing into murky territory here. Varys suspected that Gendry would be at risk but not Barra-why? If Cersei wanted the children dead in order to prevent others from concluding as Ned did, she'd want them all dead-high born or low, no matter how young and Varys would surely know that. He is supposed to be an expert player and all.
   
4. Now, look at how the death of Barra and her mother are meant to appeal specifically to Tyrion-it's not just the child but the mother as well. The mother is a young whore and Tyrion's reaction is interesting: Tyrion had never seen the dead girl’s face, but in his mind she was Shae and Tysha both.
   
5. Varys has a vested interest in keeping Cersei and Tyrion separated -doesn't trust him and has already warned Tyrion against him. Tywin had specifically instructed Tyrion to prune the Council.
   
6. No effort is made by Cersei to locate the other fourteen-and remember, she knows that there are sixteen in total, thanks to Maggi the contrived plot point Frog.
   
7. She doesn't mention ordering the killings in her PoVs.
   

Is Cruel to Tyrion

This'd be a legitimate complaint if it were true. Tyrion himself reports only that his sister looked upon him with distaste. We have two verified incidents of her having hurt him, once she mentions pinching him in his cradle and once when she slapped him three times in ACoK.

The oft-quoted penis-twisting incident is told to Tyrion by Oberyn Martell-a known enemy of the Lannisters, even Tyrion is unbelieving of the tale.

Fixing Tyrion's Trial

Tyrion appeared guilty-last to have handled the goblet, observed spilling the remaining wine, wife-who is sister to a known traitor-mysteriously disappears, has threatened the king. If we had not seen the wedding from his point of view, it'd have been difficult to adjudge him innocent or guilty.

Furthermore, they had barely called the first witness when Tyrion waived it in favour of a trial-by-combat, so we can't know if it was fixed or not.

General Thoughts

Cersei is tagged with a rather unique narrative, I hesitate to say problem-perhaps it's more of a trick-where you as a reader leave the first book convinced that she is guilty of crimes that she has never committed. You enter the second book and-ah ha! the suspicious Master of Whisperers who's loyalty lies with no one,against whom both Tywin and Cersei have warned Tyrion, delivers a tale worthy of a stepmother from Grimn's Fairytales-the original and not the Disney ones. Then, we see her...do nothing awful. She rages against Tyrion for trying to marry off Mycella without the consent of the Queen Regent surely understandable. She takes Alaeyaya hostage when Tyrion captures Tommen.

In ASoS she's practically tame.

Yet, because we view her through the PoVs who are most set against her-Sansa and Tyrion-we get a warped view of her actions, combined with the bad aftertaste of AGoT-Cersei.

Then comes AFfC. This is where shit hits the fan, so to speak. Depressed and paranoid and alone, Cersei sinks to lows for whichshe deserves to be condemned: the torturing of Senelle, Falyse andthe puppet girls and her persecution of Margery are wrong.

When it comes to Cersei's friend however, the one she is supposed to have pushed in a well, the writing again becomes evasive-she doesn't say "I pushed her", nor does she say how she fell and that makes me wonder: could the trauma have affected her memory of the incident? Is she repressing it?

I refuse to acknowledge Maggi the Plot Device

Auxiliary Notes

This OP is made up of general notes I've been making about Cersei for some time. It is neither very coherent nor particularly insightful, for which I apologise. I wanted to know the opinions of other readers on the matter.

[TooManyFreys]

Hating Cersei is the closest we have come to an agreement as a group. Her detractors swear that she is a vile conniving cunning, heartless, power hungry woman who'd gladly sell her children for power.

Her supporters, rather than try and sift through the evidence are generally ready to defend her against the crazier claims "seduced Jaime into incest") but are often hesitant to attack claims made in the text.

She does love her children. Like Tyrion said, that's her one redeeming quality...that and her cheekbones

[Natalie_S]

Is Cruel to Tyrion

This'd be a legitimate complaint if it were true. Tyrion himself reports only that his sister looked upon him with distaste. We have two verified incidents of her having hurt him, once she mentions pinching him in his cradle and once when she slapped him three times in ACoK.

The oft-quoted penis-twisting incident is told to Tyrion by Oberyn Martell-a known enemy of the Lannisters, even Tyrion is unbelieving of the tale.

I would add that Tyrion recalls that when he was younger she told him that there was a dwarf prostitute known for mating with dogs and offered to find a dog for him. That's quite cruel.

Besides she probably sent Mandon Moore to kill him. I don't know if that's true (I remember there was a thread about it), but in the show it was told explicitly by Varys. Since GRRM has a lot of saying in the making of the show, it could be a confirmation.

And, not regarding Tyrion, there's the whole business of sending people to torture and wanting to have Arya killed or handless for having hit Joffrey (from Jaime's POV).

[Lady Lea]

Great post, WK! I have to finish something important before I come back but since you mentioned "crimes Cersei didn't commit" I'm just going to copy/paste one of my posts from the other thread.

Ned's death. A lot of people put it solely on Cersei's shoulders but Cersei didn't even want him dead. She wanted him out of the way, of course, the man had information which could get her and her children exiled, or worse, killed. But she only wanted him to go to the Wall. It was Joffrey, who went against her express wishes (and who was probably egged on by LF), who decided. And this was a huge blow for Cersei too - the son which she had fought so hard to defend her whole life and who she loved so much, disregarded her opinions like she was nothing. She saw that she remained powerless even after her husband's death.

[Lady Lea]

Besides she probably sent Mandon Moore to kill him. I don't know if that's true (I remember there was a thread about it), but in the show it was told explicitly by Varys. Since GRRM has a lot of saying in the making of the show, it could be a confirmation.

Well I wouldn't say Varys is very trustworthy. I actually think LF had a hand in it. Cersei never thinks about Mandon failing to kill Tyrion, never anything related to the incident, I think it's really unlikely that it was her. It was Tyrion himself who pinned it on Cersei. Ironically enough she's the first person he thinks to blame, just like he's the first person she thinks to blame when Joff is poisoned.

She really believes he did it, too, it wasn't like she just accused him randomly to finally kill him off.

[Kittykatknits]

This is great! I will also be back soon when I'm able to sit in front of my laptop for more than two minutes.

[Winter's Knight]

I would add that Tyrion recalls that when he was younger she told him that there was a dwarf prostitute known for mating with dogs and offered to find a dog for him. That's quite cruel.

Besides she probably sent Mandon Moore to kill him. I don't know if that's true (I remember there was a thread about it), but in the show it was told explicitly by Varys. Since GRRM has a lot of saying in the making of the show, it could be a confirmation.

And, not regarding Tyrion, there's the whole business of sending people to torture and wanting to have Arya killed or handless for having hit Joffrey (from Jaime's POV).

Could you quote me one the dwarf whore thing Natalie?

And as to the Arya bit: it was wrong. I concede it. within the law but barbarously wrong.

I didn't say she's a saint, but she's no worse than her brothers.:P

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

Ned's death isn't on Cersei. I forogt if it was at the end of AGOT or ACOK but she says that she wanted him to go the wall. Joffrey even says something like "my mom and betrothed want mercy but they have weak hearts of women" it was probably varys or LF that told the king to kill Ned.

Does Tyrion even try to find out who sent Mandon Moore to kill him? iirc he just thinks it was cersei and doesn't really put too much effort into finding out the truth.

[SerStinger]

I disagree with your posts on direwolves. They are noble creatures. Most the dogs kill too, only the worthless shit like poodles don't. Plus, Lady was innocent.

However, I have thought about what you said about her killing the bastards and you're semi-right, in the sense that your reasoning is flawless and casts doubts upon her guilt, so we have to keep an open mind. I just assumed she ordered them killed, but I assumed she ordered Jon Arryn dead and that turned out wrong. So... yeah.

I never thought she was cruel to Tyrion.... not especially. They jested each other which is fine... then became enemies.

I guess my fear of Cersei is something deeper psychologically than others. As a friend of mine pointed, all mother characters in my stories are evil, and I have always regarded maternal love as something scary and sinister. My own mother loves me to an unnatural degree, and I'm always fearful if I'm being exploitative of her. No human being should devote herself to another this way. It's scary. It's not good. People should manage their loves and hatreds.

To me, Cersei's love for her children is excessive, unnatural, and scary.

[Winter's Knight]

Ned's death isn't on Cersei. I forogt if it was at the end of AGOT or ACOK but she says that she wanted him to go the wall. Joffrey even says something like "my mom and betrothed want mercy but they have weak hearts of women" it was probably varys or LF that told the king to kill Ned.

Ned himself was told he'd be sent to the wall, Cersei didn't mean to have him executed and antagonise the North.

Which is why I don't understand her actions in Feast-she was politically astute enough to realise Ned's importance.

[red fork]

Hating Cersei is the closest we have come to an agreement as a group. Her detractors swear that she is a vile conniving cunning, heartless, power hungry woman who'd gladly sell her children for power.

I really don't get "hating" characters.

Of course Cersei is vile, conniving, paranoid, incompetent and all the rest of it - that's why she's *brilliant*!

[Lady Lea]

To me, Cersei's love for her children is excessive, unnatural, and scary.

SerStinger, I'm not making fun of you but this made me smile. We can't win can we? Cat is cold and unnatural for thinking her children were capable of taking care of themselves (and they had other people looking out for them), and Lysa and Cersei are unnatural for loving their kids too much...

[deleted01]

Must. Not. Post.

:leaving:

[Natalie_S]

Could you quote me one the dwarf whore thing Natalie?

Yep, it's from ADWD:

"Growing up, Tyrion heard reports of a dwarf jester at the seat of the Dornish Lord Fowler, a dwarf maester in service on the Fingers, and a female dwarf amongst the silent sisters, but he never felt the least need to seek them out. Less reliable tales also reached his ears, of a dwarf witch who haunted a hill in the riverlands, and a dwarf whore in King’s Landing renowned for coupling with dogs. His own sweet sister had told him of the last, even offering to find him a bitch in heat if he cared to try it out. When he asked politely if she were referring to herself, Cersei had thrown a cup of wine in his face."

I never thought she was cruel to Tyrion.... not especially. They jested each other which is fine... then became enemies.

I don't think there was ever a simple sibling rivalry between them: she was convinced that he had killed their mother, and then convinced herself that he was her valonqar and that he was going to make her cry all her tears and eventually kill her.

That isn't exactly a good ground for an healthy brother-sister relationship.

Well I wouldn't say Varys is very trustworthy. I actually think LF had a hand in it. Cersei never thinks about Mandon failing to kill Tyrion, never anything related to the incident, I think it's really unlikely that it was her. It was Tyrion himself who pinned it on Cersei. Ironically enough she's the first person he thinks to blame, just like he's the first person she thinks to blame when Joff is poisoned.

I don't think Varys is trustworthy, but I thought it was an interesting directing choice.

Tyrion could have said this to Shae, to Pod or to Varys himself as if it ws his own doubt (as it is in the book), while here it's explicitly confirmed by another character who happens to be almost omniscient.

I think this could mean that this should be regarded as an incontrovertible truth by the audience.

Or it could just be that the directors got it wrong. I don't know.

[Lady Lea]

Does Tyrion even try to find out who sent Mandon Moore to kill him? iirc he just thinks it was cersei and doesn't really put too much effort into finding out the truth.

we're still waiting on that reveal!

[Winter's Knight]

I disagree with your posts on direwolves. They are noble creatures. Most the dogs kill too, only the worthless shit like poodles don't. Plus, Lady was innocent.

They react to their owner's emotions. Look at Shaggydog-he'd have attacked Tyrion if Rickon had not called him off. Similarly, Arya was lucky that Nymeria went for Joff's hand, instead of his throat.

An animal may be both noble and dangerous at the same time surely?

However, I have thought about what you said about her killing the bastards and you're semi-right, in the sense that your reasoning is flawless and casts doubts upon her guilt, so we have to keep an open mind. I just assumed she ordered them killed, but I assumed she ordered Jon Arryn dead and that turned out wrong. So... yeah.

Ha! A convert. It always pleases me to have changed someone's mind.

I never thought she was cruel to Tyrion.... not especially. They jested each other which is fine... then became enemies.

I guess my fear of Cersei is something deeper psychologically than others. As a friend of mine pointed, all mother characters in my stories are evil, and I have always regarded maternal love as something scary and sinister. My own mother loves me to an unnatural degree, and I'm always fearful if I'm being exploitative of her. No human being should devote herself to another this way. It's scary. It's not good. People should manage their loves and hatreds.

To me, Cersei's love for her children is excessive, unnatural, and scary.

She does tend to micromanage things a bit.

[Faint]

Cersei has never been that much of an antagonist to the Starks and am puzzled why she always achieves such a prominent position in that regard in reader discussions about the issue.

She wasn't the one that crippled Bran.

She wasn't the one that had Ned executed.

She wasn't the one to sack and burn Winterfell and imprison its denizens.

She wasn't the one that orchestrated the Red Wedding.

She wasn't the one that decided to meltdown Ice.

She wasn't the one that decided to have Sansa married off to Tyrion.

[SerStinger]

SerStinger, I'm not making fun of you but this made me smile. We can't win can we? Cat is cold and unnatural for thinking her children were capable of taking care of themselves (and they had other people looking out for them), and Lysa and Cersei are unnatural for loving their kids too much...

Have you ever seen me arguing against Cat? Cat is a very good parent, and I have absolutely nothing against her.

An animal may be both noble and dangerous at the same time surely?

Yeah, but I will hate Cersei for killing Lady, dangerous or not.

[SerStinger]

And I've gotta watch that movie... it sounds nice.

[Winter's Knight]

Must. Not. Post.

:leaving:

I won't bite. Much.

Yep, it's from ADWD:

"Growing up, Tyrion heard reports of a dwarf jester at the seat of the Dornish Lord Fowler, a dwarf maester in service on the Fingers, and a female dwarf amongst the silent sisters, but he never felt the least need to seek them out. Less reliable tales also reached his ears, of a dwarf witch who haunted a hill in the riverlands, and a dwarf whore in King’s Landing renowned for coupling with dogs. His own sweet sister had told him of the last, even offering to find him a bitch in heat if he cared to try it out. When he asked politely if she were referring to herself, Cersei had thrown a cup of wine in his face."

I don't think there was ever a simple sibling rivalry between them: she was convinced that he had killed their mother, and then convinced herself that he was her valonqar and that he was going to make her cry all her tears and eventually kill her.

That isn't exactly a good ground for an healthy brother-sister relationship.

I don't think Varys is trustworthy, but I thought it was an interesting directing choice.

Tyrion could have said this to Shae, to Pod or to Varys himself as if it ws his own doubt (as it is in the book), while here it's explicitly confirmed by another character who happens to be almost omniscient.

I think this could mean that this should be regarded as an incontrovertible truth by the audience.

Or it could just be that the directors got it wrong. I don't know.

Thanks Natalie!

Maggi the Frog angers me for the same reasons as Tyrion is a Targ theories-you just took this beautiful characters, a woman who grows up pamped but slighted, is old into an abusive marriage and so on. She hates her dwarf brother-even though they have so much in common and working together, would have been deadly-she believes that he killed her mother.

You take all these feelings, all that resentment and anger and negate it-she hates Tyrion because he'll kill her one day. She believes it's Tyrion because he's ugly and repulsive, thus she'll never suspect the beautiful Jaime and BOOM! You have an elephant sized morality tale.