Why All The Love For Stannis? Pt. 2

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

He never says here that he's king because Robert established a new line of succession, and that if he loses the war he is no longer king, or that he will bend the knee to whoever wins it 'rightfully' or that he needs to claim his rights by conquest. Stannis expects everyone to bow because Tommen is a bastard and he's a Baratheon, and that's it. There's the whole "I am pre-ordained to be king by the Lord of Light," angle, which, personally, I think makes more sense when it comes to Stannis' cause, and is a very smooth move on his part - but it only works if the majority believes that justification, which isn't the case.

IIRC, Stannis has never believed or insinuated that he is, "pre-ordained to be king by the Lord of Light." Stannis stated that he should be king because he is Robert's heir as the next Baratheon in the line of succession. He is right in this belief, if Tommen is a bastard. He knows that he must take the throne by force (a throne he doesn't even want) which is why he went to war, so I don't understand your argument here. Based on his statements and actions...why wouldn't Stannis surrender if someone else conquers Westeros?

Everything we know about Stannis has shown us that he follows the laws of Westeros. He even had a hard time choosing to take up arms against his king or his brother.

Baratheons aren't the ruling house, though. Technically, a Baratheon sits the Iron Throne, but there is so much of Westeros that doesn't support him that it can't be said that he really rules the Seven Kingdoms. A majority of the people do not recognize him as king - thus, he has no power over them, and is not king, making the presumption that the Baratheon succession is still in place untrue. Therefore, Stannis has no 'right' to the Iron Throne - at least, not until he wins it. Good luck to him.

A Baratheon sits the Iron Throne, therefore the Baratheons are currently the ruling house in Westeros. They have not been disposed. I understand your point, but I disagree. We can leave it at that.

Of course succession matters - but it only matters because people believe it does, and if it's force that ensures it continues. When the people just stop caring, or when the force isn't effective enough, then succession is broken. Right now, succession has been broken, because there are tons of people everywhere all following different kings, and we don't quite have a winner yet. Tommen sits the Iron Throne at the point I'm at in the books, but Tommen isn't enforcing his rule, hasn't won the conflict, and, as such, cannot be referred to as the 'real' king (which is good, because that means it's not within his power to ban beets yet).

I feel that Tommen has successfully defended his crown at this point in the story, and is currently the 'real' king on the Iron Throne, since no one has taken his crown. We can agree to disagree on this point as well.

He says "The realm is mine by rights." He says "I am king." He refers to Westeros as "My realm." Not "My realm until someone else rightfully wins it," or "My realm until it ceases being my realm," or "My realm until a new line of succession is instituted." He just thinks it's his, and that sort of thinking isn't compatible with might=right.

Why wouldn't Stannis think of the realm as belonging to him, if no one else has conquered it??? Stannis has stated why he believes he is the rightful king, so why must he say it at every turn?

Why would any king say, "Well, this is my realm until someone takes it from me?"

This means that the only justification that would makes sense for him would be that he is somehow DESTINED for kingship through some sort of divine right, and that's got nothing to do with succession. Because Stannis is smart, he uses that justification, with the divinity that gives him the right of kingship being R'hllor or whatnot. Of course, most of Westeros does not currently adhere to the faith of the Lord of Light, and thus, as he doesn't have the people going along with his justification, he has no way of becoming king, which is why he isn't sitting the Iron Throne right now.

IIRC, Stannis has never used the "Lord of Light" as reasoning for him sitting the Iron Throne, because he already has his justification. He believes he should sit the Iron Throne through the "law of succession", since he believes Tommen to be a bastard. This is why he went to war, and this is why he is still fighting the war.

A new system or monarch may have been instituted, but power is required to preserve that change.

True, but no one has conquered the Iron Throne since the Baratheons.

And look at what's happening there - there are still Targaryens out there, and they still believe that the right to the throne is theirs, because the Baratheons didn't win it "rightfully". There is no "rightful" conquest - there is just conquest, and if you lose, then it sucks for you, but there's nothing you can do about it.

True, which is why the Targaryrens do not have a heredity right to the Iron Throne. The Baratheons are currently the ruling house, since they usurped the Targaryrens.

That's why Dany wants to go RECLAIM the Iron Throne, as opposed to her deciding that since she's the rightful queen, she's not gonna recognize a Baratheon is king, and she'll be able to rule Westeros without lifting a finger, because she's RIGHTFUL and that means she gets automatic power. She's not gonna just bend the knee, because someone else 'rightfully' won the throne. Everyone who believes they have a claim will defend that claim, but their claim isn't legitimate until they enforce it with force arms. Might=right.

1. Stannis is fighting a war for the throne, so where do you get this belief that he feels he gets automatic power?

2. Dany still feels that she is the rightful queen and that the lords should flock to her cause when she arrives in Westeros, and that is why she will not bend the knee. Dany WANTS the Iron Throne, Stannis does not. He is only fighting for the throne because he feels it is his DUTY.

3. I have never stated that might does not equal right, or that Stannis does not need to fight for his right to the Iron Throne, and neither has Stannis.

Like I said before - this is the crux of the argument, and until this is resolved, there can be no conclusion. The majority (or at least a significant number of people) do not recognize Tommen's authority as king, therefore he has no ruling power, therefore he is NOT king. The law may give him power, but if the people do not agree to follow the law, it doesn't really make a difference - and that's what might=right is all about. Systems work because people say they do, and if they say they don't, then they don't. Tommen can seat himself wherever he likes, but I'm sitting here in my green beanbag typing this, and if I say that my green beanbag chair means that I am a queen, I still don't get to force everyone to eat beets for breakfast, lunch, and dinner (mmm yummy). Kings are kings because their authority is recognized, and Tommen's isn't.

Like I said before, I understand your point. Still, Tommen has not be removed from the kingship by anyone, so it is my view that he is king. We can agree to disagree.

Tommen is indeed claiming the throne through a false birthright, and his entire claim is :bs: , but if the people believe it and they do what he says, he still has kingly power.

I agree

Of course, since the people don't believe and do what he says, he isn't a king.

I disagree.

Stannis is claiming that succession makes him king... and I think I've said enough about succession up there, but I'm gonna say it again - if the first point of Stannis' claim (succession) works, and you follow through on his logic, then, as you said, the CotF would own everything, and they obviously don't. There are presumably no Westerosi citizens standing in the middle of the forest waiting for edicts. They recognize the authority of different kings now, and if Stannis isn't one of them, then he isn't a king.

In my view:

Succession DOES NOT mean that "might makes right" does not exist! I cannot stress this enough.Following the "law of succession" the Children of the Forest do not own anything. It has been proven REPEATEDLY throughout the history of Westeros that a new person comes into power following "right of conquest", and then creates a line of succession that remains unbroken until someone else takes the kingship/lordship through "right of conquest" creating a new line of succession, This is why new kings and lords are always so eager to have sons, because those sons strengthen their claims and power.

"Right of conquest"/"might makes right" is to show the people who now has power over them. The "law of succession" is meant to show the ruling house who has the power. You need both to run a peaceful/successful kingdom/castle, otherwise there would be rebellions and civil wars at all times.

No one has conquered the Iron Throne since the Baratheons, and regardless of how the people may feel about Tommen he still holds his crown and the kingship. Until another house conquers the Iron Throne, Stannis is the rightful heir following the line of succession if Tommen is a bastard. If you do not agree, fine.

Stannis' other line of defense - the divine - once again is only valid if the people recognize it. His point about the Lord of Light is in no way hypocrisy, because he says that R'hllor has decided he shall be king, and there's not really any way to be hypocritical about that, as it's a pretty self-evident kind of thinking. I believe that if Stannis converts enough people, this might win him the kingship, but at this point, he just hasn't won yet.

If Stannis makes this claim and forsakes his other claim it is indeed hypocrisy following his previous statements, because he would be the same as every other contender for the crown. It would not be his by rights, nor could he consider himself the rightful king.

To be clear - I don't hate Stannis. He isn't really my kind of character, and I can't say I'm a fan, but I don't hate him or even strongly dislike him. I'm sad he killed Renly (my poor Renly), but that's about it as far as goes as far as personal preference. I don't believe he's king, though, unless he wins the throne by force, and I don't agree with the idea that he has some inherent right without having to establish and maintain his rule.

That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. ^_^

I also do not believe that Stannis is the current king of Westeros, but I feel he should be the current king in Westeros. I also feel that he must fight for his current right to be king in order to establish and maintain his rule.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I had to start a new thread...don't judge me. :laugh:

[Associate Maester]

I had to start a new thread...don't judge me. :laugh:

I sat out a couple rounds, so if the usual debate continues I'll get back on the horse. :devil:

[therustman]

Didn't this get answered - cos he's one BAMF

[E-Ro]

Alright hatas, round 2 lets go. This time I will be here full force.

[Lord Joker Of FunLand]

Why do we need a 2nd part? People who like him, will continue liking him. People who don't, will continue hating him.

Debating it forever won't change that.

[E-Ro]

Why do we need a 2nd part? People who like him, will continue liking him. People who don't, will continue hating him.

Debating it forever won't change that.

Its more to dispell the lies and bull that are posted about him.(not purposfully posted, but misunderstood aspects of the charecter)

I can debate about stannis all day.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I sat out a couple rounds, so if the usual debate continues I'll get back on the horse. :devil:

:ninja: Ready! :ninja:

[Beets]

Why do we need a 2nd part? People who like him, will continue liking him. People who don't, will continue hating him.

Debating it forever won't change that.

I dunno... I think the last thread evolved less into a "ERMAGERD I HATE STERNERS" VS "ERMAGERD NUU STERNERS ERS ERSOME" into more of a "Ok, let's debate Stannis, his motives, his stances, his blah, his other blah, and also his other blah which isn't a real factor but is still fun to talk about."

Might I suggest a rename of the thread, if only to discourage flat-out haters from bothering to wander in?

Lady Tippy, I haven't got a chance to read over your first post, but I shall and shall post my thoughts on it shortly. :thumbsup:

[Lord Joker Of FunLand]

Its more to dispell the lies and bull that are posted about him.(not purposfully posted, but misunderstood aspects of the charecter)

I can debate about stannis all day.

Fair enough, i didn't participate much in the last one so i didn't know.

I thought it was more of a Stannis supporters vs Stannis haters.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Why do we need a 2nd part? People who like him, will continue liking him. People who don't, will continue hating him.

Debating it forever won't change that.

Well, I had to respond to the post I quoted earlier because it bothers me when my points are misunderstood. I understand where you're coming from, because I feel the same way about Catelyn threads.

I love Stannis, what else can I say. :wub: Plus, I haven't defended him in a while...I have failed my king, and must do better. :crying:

Might I suggest a rename of the thread, if only to discourage flat-out haters from bothering to wander in?

Great suggestion.

Lady Tippy, I haven't got a chance to read over your first post, but I shall and shall post my thoughts on it shortly. :thumbsup:

Yay, okay!

[ellisg]

Why do people feel Stannis is hilarious? He's blunt but that it doesn't make me burst with laughter like Tyrion does. I could understand if you were laughing at Stannis but a lot of his fans say one of his best traits is that he's funny.

[Lord Joker Of FunLand]

Well, I had to respond to the post I quoted earlier because it bothers me when my points are misunderstood. I understand where you're coming from, because I feel the same way about Catelyn threads.

I love Stannis, what else can I say. :wub: Plus, I haven't defended him in a while...I have failed my king, and must do better. :crying:

Yeah it makes sense, i love Stannis too, one of the best characters in the book.

I was just curious at first , why we needed a new thread. But i got my answer now. :P

[E-Ro]

Why do people feel Stannis is hilarious? He's blunt but that it doesn't make me burst with laughter like Tyrion does. I could understand if you were laughing at Stannis but a lot of his fans say one of his best traits is that he's funny.

He has some great one liners. When he owns renly with that comment about marg staying a maiden in his bed I was like :drunk: Stannis has jokes. Its more a subtle and dry humor that really makes me laugh.

[ellisg]

It is dry humor, but sometimes it seems to subtle. I can't really tell if he's purposely joking or just being plain honest, considering he never really understood the point of laughter, I think it's more likely the latter. I did laugh at Stannis when he was talking to Renly, but that was because it was good banter between brothers.

[Jaehaerys Sand]

He's funny.

He's a proven commander.

He's pretty the only one that I have confidence in leading the country.

He's the rightful heir.

[Lord Joker Of FunLand]

It is dry humor, but sometimes it seems to subtle. I can't really tell if he's purposely joking or just being plain honest, considering he never really understood the point of laughter, I think it's more likely the latter. I did laugh at Stannis when he was talking to Renly, but that was because it was good banter between brothers.

This is what makes him funny.The fact that he isn't trying to be funny yet it works.

[ellisg]

He's the rightful heir.

Him being the rightful heir doesn't seem a good reason to get behind him though. Aerys was the king by rights but we're glad he lost. I honestly don't think being righful heir means a lot. The Throne goes to whoever takes it.

This is what makes him funny.The fact that he isn't trying to be funny yet it works.

I think he's just being honest and says what we're all thinking really. He doesn't crack jokes he just owns people with what he says and my reaction isn't laughter, my reaction is: did he just say that (those things moments can be funny) I just didn't think they were that funny.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

He's funny.

He's a proven commander.

He's pretty the only one that I have confidence in leading the country.

He's the rightful heir.

Yes, yes, YES!!!

This is why he is awesome! I'm pretty sure I have a crush on Stannis, Jon, and Robb.

This is what makes him funny.The fact that he isn't trying to be funny yet it works.

:agree: Dang, I miss the "like" button.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Him being the rightful heir doesn't seem a good reason to get behind him though. Aerys was the rightful heir to the throne but we're glad he lost. I honestly don't think being righful heir means a lot. The Throne goes to whoever takes it.

Stannis is the ONLY person fighting for kingship that I feel could save Westeros. Being the rightful heir means a lot until someone else conquers the throne.