Could Stoneheart Save Jon.

[NedStark2013]

I have been wondering would Stoneheart Save Jon. From The NW idea of justice. I know Cat hated Jon Snow but the question is could she or it allow Jon to be slain. Brother to Robb and Son to Ned. Maybe whatever little Cat is left would help Jon because the reason she hated Jon was he was most like Ned in her eyes.

That likely made it harder for Cat to like Jon. I am also wonder could Cat maybe could have cared about Jon but her pride would not let her express or show such things consiously. Maybe Stoneheart could take Jon to Thoro for I personally Trust him more the Mel really.

I just don't Buy she is a loyal servent to Stannis or any man.

[Huta]

This could all be very true, though I don't see it happening logistically. I mean Stoneheart is presumably leagues away not to mention the fact that they don't know about the attack on Jon.

I think Cat could care because her husband/children cared and she would not want them to be hurt (even in the afterlife) and Jon now is one of the last "Starks" alive.

[Dreadwolf]

First of all it is too much far-fetched to say that Catelyn while still living hated Jon. She had seen him as a potential threat for the birth rights of her children. And of course there existed some resentment from the fact that Ned decided to raise his natural born son in his own castle. Which by old and new standards was preposterous impertinence for anyone who was not aware of the actual Ned*s motivation. And He preferred to spare this to Catelyn not only without giving her any plausible explanation but he even allowed himself to threaten her when she had asked once about the rumors spread for Ned and Ashara along the internet Winterfell.

So while Jon was not for Cat – her husband*s favorite bastard, we would be unjust in saying that she hated the boy.

We however might not be very wrong if we just say that Catelyn Tuly Stark did not want Jon messing around her children*s inheritance.

My personal understanding about Lady Catelyn and lady Stoneheart story line was that –

In her life Cat was compassionate, loving person. Her life was motivated and driven by her love.

Her love motivation in life however suddenly turned to hate cause in her after - life. She was changed with the death [or misrepresented death in some cases] of almost everyone she hold dear and with the most logical expectations that even if Sansa and Arya were still alive there was nothing good awaiting them. Having watched how her worst nightmares came true [Freys disregarded the sacred guest right] She was not in position to still keep the slimmest previous faith she had had, that Lannister*s honor/ Jaime*s promise means anything and could protect her lost daughters.

We have living and loving Catelyn from one side and her distorted hating shadow from the other.

Now if she really had wanted Jon*s demise before she died… well this might have been an original and ironic plot twist or just a reversed mirror image that she now could raise from the death one of the few [if any at all] the persons she once hated.

But that was not the case and I really can*t see how [and most importantly why] Catelyn would appear so quickly at the wall to revive Jon*s corpse or to otherwise resurrect him.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Yes the idea has been put forward before, but as pointed out up-thread it is extremely unlikely. If she was awaiting Brienne and Jaime's return in the Riverlands at approx the time Jon was stabbed (last Jaime ch in ADwD), then it wouldn't make a lot of sense for the BWB to fly up the king's road and potentially through a terrible blizzard.

It would be more likely (albeit still crackpot) that Thoros would tire of the way Lady Stoneheart tormented Brienne, and broke off from the group then to head to the wall as he's seen AA in the fires. Then we could finally get Thoros vs Mel which at the very least would answer some questions about fire priests I would think.

[bemused]

No. And he's not dead . Though all men must die ( and all women too ) his time has not yet come.

Mel is drawn to him as a potential shadow baby daddy because of the strength of his life force. Cold preserves. His blood ( king's blood probably on both sides ) has been shed at a place of great magic ( one of the hinges of the world , as Mel puts it ). I think that's quite enough to kill the boy and let the man be born. John's attempts to follow Aemon's advice , up to this point , have been like the labour and this will prove to be the birth , if you like.. but not, I think , with help from Mel, or any other undead-by-fire-magic creature.

This is a job for Jon , himself ,and the old gods.

[NedStark2013]

The Thoro Idea would not be bad. Thoro seems like a bad dude and he could probably least scare them off. The Most likely idea is that Jon didn't get hit in any vital organs and just passed out. As a fan of Syrio who was the fencing master of Arya would be a great unexpected savior for everyone thinks he died in Kings Landing but my guess is that Syrio is really the Old Man training Arya as Facelessman.

Syrio could take this guys if had a Sword. I know I have a wild imagination. Can't help it for its the writer in me I guess.

[Masha]

First of all it is too much far-fetched to say that Catelyn while still living hated Jon. She had seen him as a potential threat for the birth rights of her children. And of course there existed some resentment from the fact that Ned decided to raise his natural born son in his own castle. Which by old and new standards was preposterous impertinence for anyone who was not aware of the actual Ned*s motivation. And He preferred to spare this to Catelyn not only without giving her any plausible explanation but he even allowed himself to threaten her when she had asked once about the rumors spread for Ned and Ashara along the internet Winterfell.

So while Jon was not for Cat – her husband*s favorite bastard, we would be unjust in saying that she hated the boy.

We however might not be very wrong if we just say that Catelyn Tuly Stark did not want Jon messing around her children*s inheritance.

My personal understanding about Lady Catelyn and lady Stoneheart story line was that –

In her life Cat was compassionate, loving person. Her life was motivated and driven by her love.

Her love motivation in life however suddenly turned to hate cause in her after - life. She was changed with the death [or misrepresented death in some cases] of almost everyone she hold dear and with the most logical expectations that even if Sansa and Arya were still alive there was nothing good awaiting them. Having watched how her worst nightmares came true [Freys disregarded the sacred guest right] She was not in position to still keep the slimmest previous faith she had had, that Lannister*s honor/ Jaime*s promise means anything and could protect her lost daughters.

We have living and loving Catelyn from one side and her distorted hating shadow from the other.

Now if she really had wanted Jon*s demise before she died… well this might have been an original and ironic plot twist or just a reversed mirror image that she now could raise from the death one of the few [if any at all] the persons she once hated.

But that was not the case and I really can*t see how [and most importantly why] Catelyn would appear so quickly at the wall to revive Jon*s corpse or to otherwise resurrect him.

It might be not be pure hate as in Hate Freys and Lannisters, but in her life Catelyn came as close as possible to hating Jon.

I remember the passage when Robb tells her he is planning to make Jon his heir UPON his death and if he does NOT have any children by that time. As far as she knows both Bran and Rickon are dead, Arya most likely dead and Sansa became a Lannister. Robb's will ONLY in effect IF he dies without heirs, and she is COMPLETELY AGAINST IT EVEN SO. She considers this as grave error on Robb's part as release Theon to his father and marrying Jayne, and, at the time, she still doesn't consider releasing Jaime just as bad move on her part.

Robb's WILL is no threat to him or hers and she is STILL completely against it. Why? Because she resents Jon as close to hatred as she can at this time.

Her feelings are completely irrational at that time and she still alive and "loving" during that time, and now, most likely she would continue to irrationally hate him. Just because her "love" turned to "hate" when she died and was resurrected, doesn't mean that her hatreds turned to love.

[~Shiera Seastar~]

During her life, Lady Cat was kind and family-loving, but not really close and warm to Jon. When Lady Stoneheart came to life, would her heart soften for Jon? Her heart's main desire was to avenge her family against those who betrayed them. If she ever hear the assassination of Jon, not sure if she'd take a moment to grieve him, add to her death list those who stabbed him, or give up her life to resurrect him - after all, Jon was family, too, particularly to her children. Catelyn might (probably). But knowing Stoneheart, she would rather hang a Frey, a Bolton, or a Lannister until her last breath than give Jon a second chance in life. Not sure if R+L=J would change her, either. The kind and honorable Catelyn died in the Red Wedding; what came back was just an undead person, so consumed of hardcore vengeance and hate, in Catelyn's body.

Anyway, don't think Jon is dead....until someone will pronounce him dead.

[wighty]

she could put the fire into his sword when jon shoves it thru her heart

[Myrish Swamp Thing]

Can you read a map?

[wighty]

Depends on the day, but thats neither here nor there....

[bemused]

When Jon comes to see the unconscious Bran..and Catelyn tells him " It should have been you !" .. I'd say that comes pretty close to hate.

[Dreadwolf]

When Jon comes to see the unconscious Bran..and Catelyn tells him " It should have been you !" .. I'd say that comes pretty close to hate.

That has been raised thousands times.

[off topic]

But it is just a phrase when she was under a tremendous pressure and after several days withot sleep during the vigil near Bran*s bed. And when her husband was preparing to leave to South, refusing to listen to her advice...Oh, It was rude yes, and quite bad choising of words but still not enough to prove that she hated Jon. Every one can lose her/ his nerves. Or just almost every normal human being. We are not robots. Sometimes we speak foul language. No matter the training.

Catelyn showed compassions towards poor sailors just because she was a compassionate = loving person. She was good not only for her family at many occasions. Saving Brienne at Renly*s camp, being the most noticable example. Her reflections about Mia Sone in Eerie might easily be considereed as a form of remorse for the words she said to Jon. And for the fact she insisted that he shall go with Benjen. All that however jsut prove my words that she did not hate him. She saw him as a danger for her family and she could be even prejudiced towards bastrads (it was common prejudice that bastards are evil and bearers of bad blood) but saying she hated Jon is not fair.

Perhaps Catelyn hated Cersei. Cat even said she would have tear Cersei eyes apart would that she had the right opportunity, yet Cat knew it would not help.

Catelyn felt no satisfaction and joy but great repulsion and disgust after the sadistic gift of Boltons - a piece of pink leather reportedly part of <prince> Theon.

Once again did Cat hate Jon? Well if she really hated him the way Cersei likes to hate[which is what I call proper hatred] ... Jon would be never getting 5-6 years old in Winterfell. You can compare Catelyn with Sansa attitude to Jon. I mean the evolution after she became <bastard> in Eerie. So van we say Sansa hated Jon? Hardly if at all...

[/end off topic]

[Dreadwolf]

she could put the fire into his sword when jon shoves it thru her heart

Are you saying she is to be Nissa Nissa reborn?

[Dreadwolf]

Her feelings are completely irrational at that time and she still alive and "loving" during that time, and now, most likely she would continue to irrationally hate him. Just because her "love" turned to "hate" when she died and was resurrected, doesn't mean that her hatreds turned to love.

I woulds just say that <feelings> by definition are irrational. [thank Goodness]. Othedrwise we would have called these thoughts for instance .

And of course I agree that just because she hated someone before, when she generally loved all, it doesn*t necessarily mean that now, when she basically hates almost everyone, she would start to automatically love that one once hated by her. I was just saying it would have been an ironical twist or something... [if we ever accept this simplification as it is]

[Starks Among Us]

I feel like her feelings towards Mia Stone were not very sympathetic or understanding, I think she viewed her, IIRC "as just another bastard".

As far as her and Jon, I think she would be resentful of the fact that he still lived when her children were dead and wouldn't give a fiddlers fart to help him out.

[NedStark2013]

I woulds just say that <feelings> by definition are irrational. [thank Goodness]. Othedrwise we would have called these thoughts for instance .

And of course I agree that just because she hated someone before, when she generally loved all, it doesn*t necessarily mean that now, when she basically hates almost everyone, she would start to automatically love that one once hated by her. I was just saying it would have been an ironical twist or something... [if we ever accept this simplification as it is]

My feeling is maybe he would remind her of Ned. I mean my thinking is Jon is a bit like Ned and letting Jon die might be like her letting Ned be Slain.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

That has been raised thousands times.

[off topic]

But it is just a phrase when she was under a tremendous pressure and after several days withot sleep during the vigil near Bran*s bed. And when her husband was preparing to leave to South, refusing to listen to her advice...Oh, It was rude yes, and quite bad choising of words but still not enough to prove that she hated Jon. Every one can lose her/ his nerves. Or just almost every normal human being. We are not robots. Sometimes we speak foul language. No matter the training.

Catelyn showed compassions towards poor sailors just because she was a compassionate = loving person. She was good not only for her family at many occasions. Saving Brienne at Renly*s camp, being the most noticable example. Her reflections about Mia Sone in Eerie might easily be considereed as a form of remorse for the words she said to Jon. And for the fact she insisted that he shall go with Benjen. All that however jsut prove my words that she did not hate him. She saw him as a danger for her family and she could be even prejudiced towards bastrads (it was common prejudice that bastards are evil and bearers of bad blood) but saying she hated Jon is not fair.

Perhaps Catelyn hated Cersei. Cat even said she would have tear Cersei eyes apart would that she had the right opportunity, yet Cat knew it would not help.

Catelyn felt no satisfaction and joy but great repulsion and disgust after the sadistic gift of Boltons - a piece of pink leather reportedly part of <prince> Theon.

Once again did Cat hate Jon? Well if she really hated him the way Cersei likes to hate[which is what I call proper hatred] ... Jon would be never getting 5-6 years old in Winterfell. You can compare Catelyn with Sansa attitude to Jon. I mean the evolution after she became <bastard> in Eerie. So van we say Sansa hated Jon? Hardly if at all...

[/end off topic]

Are you saying she is to be Nissa Nissa reborn?

I woulds just say that <feelings> by definition are irrational. [thank Goodness]. Othedrwise we would have called these thoughts for instance .

And of course I agree that just because she hated someone before, when she generally loved all, it doesn*t necessarily mean that now, when she basically hates almost everyone, she would start to automatically love that one once hated by her. I was just saying it would have been an ironical twist or something... [if we ever accept this simplification as it is]

Whoa triple post. Please use edit/multiquote button.

As to your first point: I don't know how you can defend Cat's statement to Jon and try to say she doesn't hate him. Why don't you give some text examples of her showing compassion/empathy for Jon, and not some random sailors? lol.

GRRM only really gives us this one big interaction between them, and it's not like Cat has any remorse for this statement in her POV. If anything she continues to hate him, questioning her son and king when he decides to legitamize him and put him in the line of succession. Rickon and Bran are dead and she still objects to Ned's son being an heir to WF?

[Quivver]

Perhaps UnCat will meet up with Wylla, and learn the truth about Jon's parentage (if the R+L=J theory is true) then change the way she feels about him.

Could Stoneheart be the "stone" in the "awaking dragons from stone"?

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Perhaps UnCat will meet up with Wylla, and learn the truth about Jon's parentage (if the R+L=J theory is true) then change the way she feels about him.

Could Stoneheart be the "stone" in the "awaking dragons from stone"?

Ha! that would be an epic revelation on your part if it turns out to be true. :eek: