Systemic IV: Daenerys Baratheon

[SeanF]

I agree that all of ASoIaF supports the conclusion that Westerosi jurisprudence is badly in need of a major revision; and I think that the 'sweet' part of the ending may well be that a better political framework emerges for the future. Even if it doesn't, I really like your examination of the possibilities, such as a great council.

There seems to be little sign of much thought being given to codes of law, or constitutional issues in Westeros, which seems strange, given that you'd expect the Maesters to debate such issues.

[Parwan]

Hmmm...in future Systemic posts, could you provide a link to some / all of the previous ones? I never saw any of them - having joined recently and only posting sporadically - and your premise here sounds really interesting. I jumped into this thread just responding to the OP, but your broader Systemic theme seems pretty insightful.

I agree that all of ASoIaF supports the conclusion that Westerosi jurisprudence is badly in need of a major revision; and I think that the 'sweet' part of the ending may well be that a better political framework emerges for the future. Even if it doesn't, I really like your examination of the possibilities, such as a great council.

The relevant links for "Systemic Problems" are

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/85950-systemic-problems/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/87579-systemic-problems-ii/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/88408-a-few-good-words-for-the-dothraki/

One related thread that I've mentioned is "Barristan the Barometer."

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/84076-barristan-the-barometer/

[Parwan]

Oops, that didn't work. Somehow, all the links turned out to link to the same spot. Here's another try

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/87579-systemic-problems-ii/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/88408-a-few-good-words-for-the-dothraki/

and

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/84076-barristan-the-barometer/

[Pharnavaziani]

There seems to be little sign of much thought being given to codes of law, or constitutional issues in Westeros, which seems strange, given that you'd expect the Maesters to debate such issues.

Well, the 300 years under the dragon influenced this quite a bit. The Targaryens did a lot more to Westeros than make one kingdom of Seven. After Aegon's death, the new realm tries to assert its values over the new monarchs through the Faith Militant. It's telling that, though the Targaryens have the military might of dragons, the turmoil is ultimately put down, not by a conqueror, but Jaeherys the Conciliator. His 55 year reign of stability probably did more to make the Seven Kingdoms one than any dragon. The dragons die about halfway through the reign of the Targaryens, but the people of Westeros don't rise in rebellion at the weird-looking, inbred foreigners in King's Landing. When the Great Spring Sickness leaves a few patently unworthy Targaryens in line for the throne, the first glimmerings of a constitutional framework take place in the Great Council which offers the throne to Aemon, then Aegon V. In a way, RR continues that tradition: the nobles exerting their power more directly and forcefully in royal affairs, but still conceiving of Westeros as only a single nation. The Wot5K may make history simply by weakening that unionist arc in Westeros.

By the end of the series - if this theory holds - we'll see a 'grand bargain', a treaty of some sort, intensly political and resolving many current issues but leaving a few unresolved as a result of compromise. This kind of bargain may form the foundation for a broader legal and mediative tradition in Westeros, or simply another stage in the disintegration of the Seven kingdoms.

[SeanF]

By the end of the series - if this theory holds - we'll see a 'grand bargain', a treaty of some sort, intensly political and resolving many current issues but leaving a few unresolved as a result of compromise. This kind of bargain may form the foundation for a broader legal and mediative tradition in Westeros, or simply another stage in the disintegration of the Seven kingdoms.

The Great Council only seems to function intermittently. What I'd expect to see in a society with Westeros' level of economic development would be quite powerful town and city councils, and a Third Estate, representing merchants, professionals, bureaucrats, wealthy craftsmen etc. I'd also expect to see the development of quite a sophisticated legal system, if only to regulate commerce, land ownership etc.

[Parwan]

There seems to be little sign of much thought being given to codes of law, or constitutional issues in Westeros, which seems strange, given that you'd expect the Maesters to debate such issues.

You've touched on a problem that others have touched on. I have mentioned statements by two fellows, one a good guy and the other a good guy for a Lannister. Lord Eddard at one point says that all justice flows from the king. Kevan Lannister tells Tyrion that justice belongs to the throne--you know, a possession, sort of like a sword, a puppy dog, or a wife. Not exactly what I'd call advanced legal thinking, even within the context of an authoritarian system of government.

I believe this thread may have run its course. Instead of comparing Dany to anyone else, I'll move along to the next step.

The maesters appear to be intelligent fellows, with considerable knowledge of medicine, history, and a number of other subjects. Neither they nor anyone else in Westeros appear to amount to much as legal scholars. One of the least impressive aspects of the maesters and other respected groups is the idea of "the vow." These vows seem to me to be little more than promises of slavish devotion to the leader. When a society is so focused on slavish devotion to the leader, I don't think it is likely to develop much in the way of a constitution or a worthwhile concept of the rule of law. The maesters are sometimes referred to as the scientists of Westeros in posts in these forums. Nah, not hardly. They are far too dogmatic.

The next installment in "Systemic Problems" will be "The Virgin Legion and the Maesters' Dogma."

...

By the end of the series - if this theory holds - we'll see a 'grand bargain', a treaty of some sort, intensly political and resolving many current issues but leaving a few unresolved as a result of compromise. This kind of bargain may form the foundation for a broader legal and mediative tradition in Westeros, or simply another stage in the disintegration of the Seven kingdoms.

Not impossible, but I'd be surprised to see the series end this way.

The Great Council only seems to function intermittently. What I'd expect to see in a society with Westeros' level of economic development would be quite powerful town and city councils, and a Third Estate, representing merchants, professionals, bureaucrats, wealthy craftsmen etc. I'd also expect to see the development of quite a sophisticated legal system, if only to regulate commerce, land ownership etc.

Does it even function intermittently? There was only one Great Council, wasn't there?